FPSR in Fed?

[grayhawk]

 

 

Whatcha got?

 

 

[noumpere]

Very hard to tell where the fielder was and whether R1 slid in a straight line toward the base.  The runners body, however, was not all in a straight line.

[udbrky]

Wish camera had stayed there longer, but it looked like a good call. Was it you? 

[grayhawk]

Wasn't me - it was posted to Facebook.  I think this one is really close, but if it's FPSR, it's unlikely for the reason that most people think it is.

[zoops]

I'm not sure I see any of these criteria being met (although the camera angle isn't the best):

ART. 2 . . . A slide is illegal if:

a. the runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide into the fielder, or

b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position, or

c. the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder, or

d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg, or

e. the runner tries to injure the fielder, or

f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.

[johnnyg08]

This is a tough one.  If F4 was in front of the base, it could be nothing..BUT...

R1 did slide through second base so I have FPSR for illegal contact occurring with F4's back leg due to R1's illegal slide through second base that F4 was straddling.

Great clip!  

[johnnyg08]

Forward ahead to 1:16 and there is a great example of legal action around 2B on a force play.  

[noumpere]

55 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

This is a tough one.  If F4 was in front of the base, it could be nothing..BUT...

R1 did slide through second base so I have FPSR for illegal contact occurring with F4's back leg due to R1's illegal slide through second base that F4 was straddling.

Great clip!  

"Sliding through the base" is only illegal if the initial contact is made beyond the base.  Making contact on or in front of the base and THEN sliding through is legal (assuming all other requirements are met, of course).

[johnnyg08]

So do you have this as a legal play?

[noumpere]

1 minute ago, johnnyg08 said:

So do you have this as a legal play?

I answered earlier that it's hard to tell from the video.  The way the runner slid does not give him any benefit of the doubt -- it could certainly be seen as a rolling / cross body slide.

[johnnyg08]

Yes, the angle is tough.  

Wouldn't "C" apply to this play?

ART. 2 . . . A slide is illegal if:

a. the runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide into the fielder, or

b. the runner's raised leg is higher than the fielder's knee when the fielder is in a standing position, or

c. the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder, or

d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg, or

e. the runner tries to injure the fielder, or

f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.

[noumpere]

It looks to me like any contact is before the base (and might continue after the base).

 

[johnnyg08]

So we have an "or" alters the play of the fielder beyond the base not "and" alters the play of the fielder.  

Is that something we must consider? 

 

[grayhawk]

4 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

So we have an "or" alters the play of the fielder beyond the base not "and" alters the play of the fielder.  

Is that something we must consider? 

 

The important words in the rule are "AND THEN":

"the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder, or

That means that he has to go beyond the base first, AND THEN make contact OR alter the play.  If the contact or altering the play happens before he goes beyond the base (meaning the back edge), then he has merely slid into a fielder where the fielder is not protected.

[johnnyg08]

So there is protection through the base? 

[johnnyg08]

This isn't at 2B but at home plate...the same restrictions apply.  How does this case play apply or not apply to our discussion?

2.32.2 SITUATION C:

On a force play slide at the plate, the runner slides over (beyond the plate) and makes contact with F2. Is the runner guilty of violating the force play slide rule?

RULING: Yes. A runner is expected to stop short of the back edge of home plate, the same as he would at other bases. Had the runner not made contact or altered the play, there would have been no violation. 2-32-2c(f)

[grayhawk]

3 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

This isn't at 2B but at home plate...the same restrictions apply.  How does this case play apply or not apply to our discussion?

2.32.2 SITUATION C:

On a force play slide at the plate, the runner slides over (beyond the plate) and makes contact with F2. Is the runner guilty of violating the force play slide rule?

RULING: Yes. A runner is expected to stop short of the back edge of home plate, the same as he would at other bases. Had the runner not made contact or altered the play, there would have been no violation. 2-32-2c(f)

The runner slides over (beyond the plate) and makes contact with F2

The runner makes contact with F2 and slides over (beyond the plate)

One is FPSR, and the other is not.

[maven]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

That means that he has to go beyond the base first, AND THEN make contact OR alter the play.  If the contact or altering the play happens before he goes beyond the base (meaning the back edge), then he has merely slid into a fielder where the fielder is not protected.

I agree with this.

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

So there is protection through the base? 

Protection from what? I wouldn't think of it this way.

We think of "protection" for a fielder fielding a batted ball because in general when a runner has to avoid a fielder that's OBS. The default call is OBS; when he's "protected," it isn't. That's an exception to otherwise illegal action.

There's no default call for a runner sliding into a fielder, in front of a base, who has the ball. In itself, it's nothing: not OBS, not INT, not MC. For any of those, we look for something extra, and it's the something extra that makes the infraction, not (legally) sliding into a fielder.

The FPSR violation occurs when the runner slides beyond the base and then makes contact or alters the play. It's not the case that the runner is doing something otherwise illegal, but he's protected in this exceptional case.

[johnnyg08]

Good discussion, thanks guys.  I'd love to get a look at this from another angle.  Based on this discussion, it could very easily be a baseball play and nothing else.

[ricka56]

I can not believe you folks are trying to analyze that useless video...
...on second thought, yes I can.

[Richvee]

I thought I had a FPSR violation as johnnyg08 had for sliding past the bag. Good discussion as to why that doesn't make this a FPSR violation in and of itself.

[Welpe]

A good discussion of the rule. I don't think the video can tell us anything else conclusively.

[umpstu]

9 hours ago, grayhawk said:

 

 

Whatcha got?

 

 

I got nothing from watching the video.

[udbrky]

I couldn't get a good SS of it, it was really blurry, but looked like his top leg came up high halfway through the slide.

[johnnyg08]

I cut up the video to show only the relevant portion.