Balk Question

[Guest Steve]

This past Saturday I was watching a 13U game played under NFHS rules.

Runner on 1st

Last pitch had been hit foul.  Plate umpire was holding up action until everyone was ready (batter was still getting set in the box) when suddenly the Base Umpire called "Balk". I didn't see what F1 had done but I think he stepped off the rubber incorrectly.

The coach of the offensive team said (to the base ump), "Time was out, your partner hadn't put the ball back in play yet, how can he balk"?

The base Umpire answered (loud and firmly), "There are certain circumstances where a pitcher can balk when the ball is dead and this was one of them".  For some reason the coach didn't ask for more explanation.

So my question is, "Under what circumstances can a pitcher balk when the ball is not in play (dead)"?

[Rich Ives]

This past Saturday I was watching a 13U game played under NFHS rules.

Runner on 1st

Last pitch had been hit foul.  Plate umpire was holding up action until everyone was ready (batter was still getting set in the box) when suddenly the Base Umpire called "Balk". I didn't see what F1 had done but I think he stepped off the rubber incorrectly.

The coach of the offensive team said (to the base ump), "Time was out, your partner hadn't put the ball back in play yet, how can he balk"?

The base Umpire answered (loud and firmly), "There are certain circumstances where a pitcher can balk when the ball is dead and this was one of them".  For some reason the coach didn't ask for more explanation.

So my question is, "Under what circumstances can a pitcher balk when the ball is not in play (dead)"?

There aren't any.

[Jimurray]

The only possible way for a balk to be called under these sections is in part (d ) and the ball would have to be live for that to happen.

 

PENALTY: For violation of any part of Rules 8.02 (a)(2) through (6):
(a) The pitcher shall be ejected immediately from the game and shall be suspended
automatically. In National Association Leagues, the automatic
suspension shall be for 10 games.
(b) If a play follows the violation called by the umpire, the manager of the
team at bat may advise the umpire-in-chief that he elects to accept the
play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play.
However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls,
a hit batsman, or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before
advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to
the violation.
(c) Even though the team at bat elects to take the play, the violation shall be
recognized and the penalties in subsection (a) will still be in effect.
(d) If the manager of the team at bat does not elect to accept the play, the
umpire-in-chief shall call an automatic ball and, if there are any runners
on base, a balk.
(e) The umpire shall be sole judge on whether any portion of this rule has
been violated.

I tought I concurred with my last post. The balk would have happened with a live doctored ball. The penalty of the balk would happen when the ball was dead.

[Man_In_Black]

Answer to question: There aren't any.

BU screwed up and then instead of simply saying "Sorry, my bad" he proceeded to just make sh!t up. If R1 can't steal a base during a dead ball, then the pitcher certainly can't commit a balk during one.

[dookiexman]

Under no circumstances

[Jimurray]

There aren't any.

I think that there may be a doctoring the ball circumstance that might happen when the ball is dead and a balk could be used as the penalty.

[noumpere]

The coach of the offensive team said (to the base ump), "Time was out, your partner hadn't put the ball back in play yet, how can he balk"?

 

It's nice of the team on offense to be so fair minded as to not want the incorrectly called balk, even though they would benefit from it.

 

Anyway, I hope the BU learns from this.

[maven]

Nope.

[Rich Ives]

I think that there may be a doctoring the ball circumstance that might happen when the ball is dead and a balk could be used as the penalty.

Nope. Warn. Eject. Circumstance dependent.

[Jimurray]

Nope. Warn. Eject. Circumstance dependent.

Runners on, foul ball. New ball goes to pitcher. While off the rubber he puts the ball in his glove as some pitchers do. Opposing dugout where the foul ball ended up starts yelling check the ball. You go out and there's some vasoline or whatever in the glove. Wouldn't that be a balk per the old 8.02(a)(2)thru(6) penalty?

Edited September 21, 2015 by Jimurray
Took out ball penalty

[Guest]

It's nice of the team on offense to be so fair minded as to not want the incorrectly called balk, even though they would benefit from it.

 

Anyway, I hope the BU learns from this.

LOL  I meant defensive team's coach.

[DVA7130]

Runners on, foul ball. New ball goes to pitcher. While off the rubber he puts the ball in his glove as some pitchers do. Opposing dugout where the foul ball ended up starts yelling check the ball. You go out and there's some vasoline or whatever in the glove. Wouldn't that be a ball and balk per the old 8.02(a)(2)thru(6) penalty?

I thought just an ejection.

And Vaseline in 13U?

[Jimurray]

 

 

I thought just an ejection.

And Vaseline in 13U?

I was not really projecting the doctoring for the OP. Just a generic question of when it might happen and I missed the NFHS code. I was thinking of OBR.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Jimurray

[Stan W.]

In regards to the OP........This is the old "baffle them with BS" theory of umpiring....used when an umpire doesn't know the rule or wont acknowledge he made a mistake......

 

not exactly effective....

Edited September 21, 2015 by Stan W.
relate to the OP

[noumpere]

I was not really projecting the doctoring for the OP. Just a generic question of when it might happen and I missed the NFHS code. I was thinking of OBR.

In OBR, I think it's a balk only if (a) a play follows, AND (b) the manager declines the results of the play.  (And maybe there's no option if all runners advance -- I forget)

 

Since in the OP, the ball was dead, there can be no play, so therefore, no balk.

[Jimurray]

In OBR, I think it's a balk only if (a) a play follows, AND (b) the manager declines the results of the play.  (And maybe there's no option if all runners advance -- I forget)

 

Since in the OP, the ball was dead, there can be no play, so therefore, no balk.

I sidetracked the original OP and I concur that the pitcher can't balk with a dead ball. 

As to my sidetrack: It's a ball or balk if a pitch follows and the manager declines the play or everyone advances one base.

Practically speaking using my example old 8.02(b) has normally been used in the MLB situations that have occurred. A doctored ball may have been delivered in the previous pitch but probably can't be verified. And  possbly the foriegn substance is not used to doctor the ball but to better the grip. So the pitcher is ejected and no other penalty. If in my example if the dugout ball could be verified to have been doctored then the ball/balk penalty could be used. If the pitcher's new ball has been verified to be doctored then since no pitch was thrown there is just an ejection and no ball/balk penalty. 

[Rich Ives]

Runners on, foul ball. New ball goes to pitcher. While off the rubber he puts the ball in his glove as some pitchers do. Opposing dugout where the foul ball ended up starts yelling check the ball. You go out and there's some vasoline or whatever in the glove. Wouldn't that be a balk per the old 8.02(a)(2)thru(6) penalty?

The only possible way for a balk to be called under these sections is in part (d ) and the ball would have to be live for that to happen.

 

PENALTY: For violation of any part of Rules 8.02 (a)(2) through (6):
(a) The pitcher shall be ejected immediately from the game and shall be suspended
automatically. In National Association Leagues, the automatic
suspension shall be for 10 games.
(b) If a play follows the violation called by the umpire, the manager of the
team at bat may advise the umpire-in-chief that he elects to accept the
play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play.
However, if the batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls,
a hit batsman, or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before
advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to
the violation.
(c) Even though the team at bat elects to take the play, the violation shall be
recognized and the penalties in subsection (a) will still be in effect.
(d) If the manager of the team at bat does not elect to accept the play, the
umpire-in-chief shall call an automatic ball and, if there are any runners
on base, a balk.
(e) The umpire shall be sole judge on whether any portion of this rule has
been violated.

[Umpirechick1]

Wow.  Obviously, the BU didn't know what he/she was talking about.  I'm wondering if the PU corrected the call.

[Guest]

Wow.  Obviously, the BU didn't know what he/she was talking about.  I'm wondering if the PU corrected the call.

No he didn't.  He is a 17 yo kid working with a high school (and former small college) umpire with about 30-years of experience. Even though he thought that his partner was wrong he wasn't confident enough in his knowledge of the rules to say anything to his partner.

[Kevin_K]

No he didn't.  He is a 17 yo kid working with a high school (and former small college) umpire with about 30-years 1 year of experience 30 times. Even though he thought that his partner was wrong he wasn't confident enough in his knowledge of the rules to say anything to his partner.

[Umpirechick1]

30 years of experience and you're not confident in the fact that wasn't a balk?  30 years of experience in T-ball?

[Richvee]

30 years of experience and you're not confident in the fact that wasn't a balk?  30 years of experience in T-ball?

I think you got this backwards...It's the guy who has been calling games for 30 years who called the balk, if I got this right??? 

[Guest]

I think you got this backwards...It's the guy who has been calling games for 30 years who called the balk, if I got this right??? 

Correct