Myth?

[Sut'n Blue]

 

OBR, fielder catches ball and the steps into out of play territory. The ball is still live and runners can advance but recently I have had two experienced partners tell me the fielder has to step back into live territory before he can throw the ball in an attempt to make a play. I can't find anything to support this in the rule book. I've heard this before but dismissed it until these recent conversations. Is this a myth?

 

 

[Rich Ives]

NCAA permits a local ground rule that would require the fielder to re-enter live ball territory. Absent such a ground rule it is not required.

That said - many LOCAL rules require it, although it is not required in the official playing rules (OBR), thus explaining why you can't find it in the rule books.

[JaxRolo]

I believe obr and NCAA allow for this but not FED

[renegadewolf]

2015 OBR page 26/27

Rule 5.06(b)(3)(C) Comment (Rule 7.04(c) Comment): If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area while in possession of the ball after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and each runner shall advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder fell into, or in, such out-of-play area.

This is aka "Catch and Carry"  Ball is immediately dead, award bases accordingly

76

[basejester]

2015 OBR page 26/27

Rule 5.06(b)(3)(C) Comment (Rule 7.04(c) Comment): If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area while in possession of the ball after making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and each runner shall advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the time the fielder fell into, or in, such out-of-play area.

This is aka "Catch and Carry"  Ball is immediately dead, award bases accordingly

76

​I think you're emphasizing the wrong part if you're answering the original post.  It's only if the defender falls that the ball is dead.

Edited July 4, 2015 by basejester

[Platejob29]

The "tricky" part to this is the difference in an "out of play area" and a "dead ball area". A dead ball area kills the play if the fielder is drawn into the dead ball area. An out of play area keeps the play alive as long as the fielder keeps his feet and possession of the ball. In this case for the player to continue the play he must exit the out of play area and reestablish before making a throw. If the fielder does make a throw before reentering the playing area the play is killed just like if he were to have lost possession of the ball or his footing and bases are awarded accordingly. 

[LRZ]

The "tricky" part to this is the difference in an "out of play area" and a "dead ball area". A dead ball area kills the play if the fielder is drawn into the dead ball area. An out of play area keeps the play alive as long as the fielder keeps his feet and possession of the ball. In this case for the player to continue the play he must exit the out of play area and reestablish before making a throw. If the fielder does make a throw before reentering the playing area the play is killed just like if he were to have lost possession of the ball or his footing and bases are awarded accordingly. 

​Please provide a citation to authority for this.

[JHSump]

BRD:

127 Catch: Dead-Ball Area: Throw From

OBR: Unless he falls down or loses body control, the fielder may throw from any dead-ball area.

[LRZ]

This is contrary to platejob29's statement. That's why I asked for a citation, in case I have been missing something. My understanding is that the answer to the OP's question is one of those "it's not listed as illegal, so it's legal" situations.

[renegadewolf]

So, did some further research, and stand corrected....  Found in a OBR FED rule difference book.

Fielders may go into the dugout to make a catch or catch a  ball in play and carry it out of play.  The ball remains live unless the fielder  drops the ball or falls  to the ground while in dead ball territory.  If the fielder falls or drops the ball while in dead  ball territory, runners are awarded  one base.  OBR 5.10(f) and 7.04(c).   If the fielder has not fallen in dead ball territory, then  the ball remains live and the fielder may throw from  a dead ball territory and complete a play.  OBR 5.10(f)  Professional  Interpretation

Edited July 4, 2015 by renegadewolf

[Aging_Arbiter]

BRD:

127 Catch: Dead-Ball Area: Throw From

OBR: Unless he falls down or loses body control, the fielder may throw from any dead-ball area.

They can even throw over a fence back into live ball territory...... with one caveat.  If they hit the "dead ball" side of the fence and doesn't make it into play, it is now a ball thrown out of play.

[DVA7130]

We just had a very long argument about this in another thread.............

BRD does not agree with PBUC. PBUC does not allow throws from Any dead-ball territory or out of play area. (There is no distinction). Sorry Carl, I use PBUC.

Some may disagree, but that is how I will call it until/if it is changed.

FED isn't an issue as no catch and carry. As long as he has one foot in.

[Jimurray]

We just had a very long argument about this in another thread.............

BRD does not agree with PBUC. PBUC does not allow throws from Any dead-ball territory or out of play area. (There is no distinction). Sorry Carl, I use PBUC.

Some may disagree, but that is how I will call it until/if it is changed.

FED isn't an issue as no catch and carry. As long as he has one foot in.

Your PBUC cite has not convinced a few of us. There is a distinction between stands and dugout/dead ball territory. There is a distinction between not falling down and falling down.

[DVA7130]

Alright, here is my thesis post. Per PBUC 2014:

The section is titled: "Falling into dugout or stands", and it expounds on that by including, "... Dugout, bench, grandstand, or any out-of-play area". They include all of Dead Ball Territory. Under the same section and spirit, they list example play five where fielders are not allowed to throw from out of play, time is called, and all runners advance one base.

[Jimurray]

Alright, here is my thesis post. Per PBUC 2014:

How about copying play 1 from that page.

The section is titled: "Falling into dugout or stands", and it expounds on that by including, "... Dugout, bench, grandstand, or any out-of-play area". They include all of Dead Ball Territory. Under the same section and spirit, they list example play five where fielders are not allowed to throw from out of play, time is called, and all runners advance one base.

How about copying play 1 from that page.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Jimurray
effing antique doesnt play well with this site.

[johnnyg08]

[ricka56]

That PBUC interp doesn't specifically cover whether a throw from DBT is/isn't allowed, but since two bases are to be awarded on an attempted throw from DBT in Play #1, I'd deduce that it is legal.  

[LMSANS]

That PBUC interp doesn't specifically cover whether a throw from DBT is/isn't allowed, but since two bases are to be awarded on an attempted throw from DBT in Play #1, I'd deduce that it is legal.  

If the ball is dead, how can you make a legal throw?

[Mizzou2016]

In OBR the ball is only dead if the player goes into the stands, or falls while in DBT.

If he still has his balance while in DBT, play 1 illustrates that had the catcher not dropped the ball he could have made a legal throw while in the dugout (DBT)

[DVA7130]

No. Obviously play one specified that dropping a ball in DBT is exactly the same as any other ball that ends up in DBT (not counting from the mound). Two bases.

He attempted to throw, but obviously during the transfer he drops it, hence still a catch, but two bases.

If a player near the wall while attempting to make throw into the infield accidently lets the ball pop out of play, it is the exact same concept.

Play one: Poor fellow, if he managed to throw it, it would have only have been one base, maybe he could have gotten the out if he went back onto the field.

That PBUC interp doesn't specifically cover whether a throw from DBT is/isn't allowed, but since two bases are to be awarded on an attempted throw from DBT in Play #1, I'd deduce that it is legal.

What are you talking about? Play five answers that exact "whether". It's two bases because the ball ended up in DBT, not because it was an "attempted" throw.

 

[Jimurray]

No. Obviously play one specified that dropping a ball in DBT is exactly the same as any other ball that ends up in DBT (not counting from the mound). Two bases.

He attempted to throw, but obviously during the transfer he drops it, hence still a catch, but two bases.

If a player near the wall while attempting to make throw into the infield accidently lets the ball pop out of play, it is the exact same concept.

Play one: Poor fellow, if he managed to throw it, it would have only have been one base, maybe he could have gotten the out if he went back onto the field.

What are you talking about? Play five answers that exact "whether". It's two bases because the ball ended up in DBT, not because it was an "attempted" throw.

 

Play 5 is a fielder going into the stands. Whether he falls down or not, whether he throws or not it is a one base award. Time is called immediately.

Where do you see a one base penalty for throwing from the dugut or other dead ball territory other than the stands?

Edited July 17, 2015 by Jimurray

[Jimurray]

Just to confuse the issue more, it appears from Jaska-Roder that in OBR leagues other than MLB you can go into a dugout to make a catch unless there is a ground rule that prevents going in:

I don't have Jaska-Roder but from their sample pages on the website:

"the dugout is DBT, but a catch may be made in a dugout if ground rules do not prevent it. (5.10f)(7.04c). MLB: in the interest of uniformity, a catch is not allowed in any dugout (2002 directive)."

"If a fielder initially gains possession of an airborne batted ball on LBT, but enters DBT due to his momentum, the ball remains live if the fielder neither falls nor drops the ball onto DBT while voluntarily releasing it."

[Mizzou2016]

2015 BRD section 128 covers throws from DBT - OBR fielders may throw from DBT. NCAA and FED (where the ball is dead immediately when the player enters DBT) fielders may not make a throw from DBT. The official interp is Jim Evans Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk

[Mad Mike]

BRD Section 127 notes for a catch inside Dead Ball Territory: Inside Bench or Dugout, for FED there is no provision. It refers to Section 129 where the fielder must have one foot in live ball territory , when he gains control of the ball. 

NCAA: "A fielder cannot make a catch while touching the bench or dugout area with any part of his body."

OBR: Same as NCAA. (6.05a CMT)

There are several PBUC Official Interpretations: 131-127: A fielder is in the dugout if he has one or both feet on the surface inside the dugout or has dived into the dugout with neither foot on or above the playing surface.

OI 132-127: The lip of the dugout - the top of the dugout that is even with the playing surface-is considered outside the dugout. {6.5} EXCEPT:

OI 133-127: A ball striking the equipment on the lip of the dugout is dead. {6.5}

_____________________________

Now, on throws being made from dead ball territory, BRD Section 128 notes the following:

FED: If a fielder has one foot in DBT, he may throw. If he steps with both feet into that area, the ball is dead. (5-1-1i)

NCAA: The ball remains in play if a fielder with the ball steps into DBT unless he falls down or loses body control. (6-1d)

Except: If a fielder slides "intentionally" he had NOT lost body control. EXCEPT: unless ground rules dictate otherwise, a fielder may not throw from DBT.

OBR: Unless he falls down or loses body control, the fielder may throw from any dead ball area. (5.10f; 7.04c CMT)

Evans Official Interpretation 135-128: "The critical factor is the definition of 'falls'. A player may stumble, lean on a dugout wall, be supported by players from either team, and teeter on a fence railing without actually falling. This is a judgment call and the umpire must be alert and in position to judge the player's status after catching a fly ball."

Note: 131--"Throwing from a dead ball area" is one of 12 major rules where EACH LEVEL TREATS THE SITUATION DIFFERENTLY.

[Jimurray]

BRD Section 127 notes for a catch inside Dead Ball Territory: Inside Bench or Dugout, for FED there is no provision. It refers to Section 129 where the fielder must have one foot in live ball territory , when he gains control of the ball. 

NCAA: "A fielder cannot make a catch while touching the bench or dugout area with any part of his body."

OBR: Same as NCAA. (6.05a CMT)

There are several PBUC Official Interpretations: 131-127: A fielder is in the dugout if he has one or both feet on the surface inside the dugout or has dived into the dugout with neither foot on or above the playing surface.

OI 132-127: The lip of the dugout - the top of the dugout that is even with the playing surface-is considered outside the dugout. {6.5} EXCEPT:

OI 133-127: A ball striking the equipment on the lip of the dugout is dead. {6.5}

_____________________________

Now, on throws being made from dead ball territory, BRD Section 128 notes the following:

FED: If a fielder has one foot in DBT, he may throw. If he steps with both feet into that area, the ball is dead. (5-1-1i)

NCAA: The ball remains in play if a fielder with the ball steps into DBT unless he falls down or loses body control. (6-1d)

Except: If a fielder slides "intentionally" he had NOT lost body control. EXCEPT: unless ground rules dictate otherwise, a fielder may not throw from DBT.

OBR: Unless he falls down or loses body control, the fielder may throw from any dead ball area. (5.10f; 7.04c CMT)

Evans Official Interpretation 135-128: "The critical factor is the definition of 'falls'. A player may stumble, lean on a dugout wall, be supported by players from either team, and teeter on a fence railing without actually falling. This is a judgment call and the umpire must be alert and in position to judge the player's status after catching a fly ball."

Note: 131--"Throwing from a dead ball area" is one of 12 major rules where EACH LEVEL TREATS THE SITUATION DIFFERENTLY.

Nice example of a legal catch on the lip and a "not falling down" in the dugout:

http://m.mlb.com/video/v281602983/tbphi-ruiz-catches-popup-on-the-dugout-steps/?affiliateId=clubMEGAMENU