Should balks be called in 10U ball?

[BigUmpire]

My high tech daughter face times me and I watch #2 grandson’s games from my bed all of the time BUT here is a question:

 

Should balks be called in 10U ball?

 

I believe that pitching is rhythm and repetition and if a young player is not called on flagrant balks he will “Groove” his whole pitch into a “balkable” style that will get him in trouble as he advances to upper age groups. Lots of young pitchers never recover from this traumatic event and stop pitching!

 

His league allows lead-offs and stealing and the good coaches are training their runners to watch the pitcher for signs on when to steal VS “wait for me to say go”

 

I am not advocating nitpiking BUT call flagrant balks.

 

BTW this league DOES allow balks to be called in 10U.

 

When my lawyer son in law asked one of the crapass umpires about this he stated: “ these are 10 year olds and this is instructional ball” My son in law replied” If you feel that way have you ever let the coach and/or player know what the pitcher is doing wrong?” His reply was “No”

 

My opinion is: warn first few game of the season then Balk them:

 

BUT remember 2 things the great one said:

 

·       “You just haven't been to the Mike Taylor balk school.”-mstaylor

 

·       “Don't balk it if you can't explain it”. -.mstaylor

 

Your opinions please:

 

Edited May 6, 2015 by BigUmpire

[grayhawk]

Call the elephants, ignore the mice.

If this is a league that allows leading off and stealing, then the pitchers need to be held to some kind of standard.  Granted, whether balks are called or not, it's still going to be a track meet, but these kids are old enough to start learning proper mechanics.

[johnnyg08]

How can runners steal if the pitchers are not compliant?  

My thoughts are that if you want to steal the pitchers have to be held accountable too.  

No balks, then no stealing.  

Edited May 6, 2015 by johnnyg08

[BigUmpire]

How can runners steal if the pitchers are not compliant?

My thoughts are that if you want to steal the pitchers have to be held accountable too.

No balks, then no stealing.

​Exactly!

[BigUmpire]

Call the elephants, ignore the mice.

If this is a league that allows leading off and stealing, then the pitchers need to be held to some kind of standard.  Granted, whether balks are called or not, it's still going to be a track meet, but these kids are old enough to start learning proper mechanics.

​Yep.

[ZebraStripes]

Dizzy Dean has only one balk for 10U and it is for feinting a pitch.  So funny that I had to call the one and only balk in that age group for the first time this year.  They can't play off the bag yet.  For others, we give each pitcher a warning before calling it at that age.  They have to start at some point, so sooner rather than later is a good thing.

[Nafxos]

Am I the only one who thinks it's crazy to allow stealing for 10U instructional ball? Maybe it's a regional thing (I'm in the Northeast), but when I try to imagine 10-year-olds leading, stealing, and balking, all I see is a 2-hour train wreck.

What size field are these 10Us playing on? 50/70?

[Richvee]

Some of things I'll let go in kid ball.

1. Slight start/stops going to the stretch to the set.

2. Slight shoulder turns in the set.

3. Little leg movements in the set. 

4. Going from wind up position to set without stepping back. 

I'll talk to the coach and the kid after an inning and explain what I'm seeing, and explain to them as they move up, or in travel tournys these things are going to be called. 

I'm sure there's more, but these are the ones I see most often that usually get a pass. 

Fakes to 1st from the rubber, no stop in the set, stopping during a delevery are some that need to be called all the time, IMO. 

[johnnyg08]

Some of things I'll let go in kid ball.

1. Slight start/stops going to the stretch to the set.

2. Slight shoulder turns in the set.

3. Little leg movements in the set. 

4. Going from wind up position to set without stepping back. 

I'll talk to the coach and the kid after an inning and explain what I'm seeing, and explain to them as they move up, or in travel tournys these things are going to be called. 

I'm sure there's more, but these are the ones I see most often that usually get a pass. 

Fakes to 1st from the rubber, no stop in the set, stopping during a delevery are some that need to be called all the time, IMO. 

​These are great points and extremely valid for this thread.

[RingEmUp]

Am I the only one who thinks it's crazy to allow stealing for 10U instructional ball? Maybe it's a regional thing (I'm in the Northeast), but when I try to imagine 10-year-olds leading, stealing, and balking, all I see is a 2-hour train wreck.

What size field are these 10Us playing on? 50/70?

​Agree.  10u shouldn't be leading off and stealing, the pitchers already have a hard time getting the ball near the strike zone.  I don't care how "advanced" these players are or the coaches think they are.  Learn to get the ball over the plate first, then we'll work on no balking and pick-offs.

[basejester]

The vast majority of 10s and coaches of 10s aren't ready for open bases.  The thing I'd like to see happen at 10 is the teaching of properly throwing from the set position in closed bases, before it has any consequences.

If you have open bases, then, yes, you have to call elephant balks.  

 

[BigUmpire]

​These are great points and extremely valid for this thread.

​Yes.

So far there are a lot of elephant balks.

10U here is pretty advanced BUT with really bad/underpaid umpires.

[BigUmpire]

Am I the only one who thinks it's crazy to allow stealing for 10U instructional ball? Maybe it's a regional thing (I'm in the Northeast), but when I try to imagine 10-year-olds leading, stealing, and balking, all I see is a 2-hour train wreck.

What size field are these 10Us playing on? 50/70?

​50/70

[Tksjewelry]

A lot  of our 10u games are actually pretty decent. I've seen some pretty good pick offs at 10u, of course they aren't instructional teams. Even some of our 8u's have open bases. 

10u regular season games, pitchers get one warning per pitcher per inning. Usually coaches ask that the umpire go out and explain. Most common is double set, shoulder turn in set,  or a start/stop. Tournaments get called straight up. Around here, regular season games are just training for tournaments unless it's true rec ball. 

[MadMax]

In my opinion, this is a Chicken-or-the-Egg dichotomy.

As soon as you have leading off & stealing, then you have a breed of coaches who try to induce pickoff attempts and the balks that go with them. Then you get into the other most laborious, tedious, irritating drainer of time (and patience)... the pickoff attempt, and the runner retreating back to the bag in some manner (dash, jab, flop, slide... take your pick) and the inevitable coaching of "Call for time! Call for time!". Regardless of whether or not the fielder has control of the ball, and regardless of whether or not the runner is standing on the bag, these runners are told "Call for time!" (I kid you not, this happened a few days ago. The runner retreated to the bag, and was standing on it, while the fielder was 2 feet away trying to pick the ball off the ground to throw back to the pitcher, and he waved his little hand at me and said, "Time!". I looked at the both he and his 1BC and replied, "_Why_??". Needless to say, I did not grant Time.)

Then, if Time is indeed granted (it shouldn't be), you get into the whole fiasco of having to put the ball back in play (which alot of Umpires, at least around here, still do not do consistently or reliably), all while the little pitcher is seizing on the opportunity (he thinks) and again throws the ball over there... and... 
Yeah, this gets old real fast.

And just last night, I was working 12U, where we have 1 balk warning per pitcher (same for 11U around here). I called a balk on a step-towards-1B w/o throwing (or, feint-to-1B w/o stepping off). I note the warning to the bookkeepers, and am about to put the ball back in play, when the entire DT coaching staff asks with one voice, "What was wrong with that?".
...
"He didn't throw it." "Oh. Okay, Jimmy, next time make sure you step off and throw it." "No coach, he doesn't have to step off. He just has to throw it if he makes that move." "Oh. Well, Jimmy, make sure you throw it!" "Make sure Jackson will catch it then!" (Yes, Jimmy speaks. I'm. not. making. this. up.) "Jackson! Why aren't you holding the runner on??!"
...
After the directing has died down (because, of course, Jimmy has not yet gotten back atop the mound so I can call "Play!"), I finally put the ball back in play, and we complete the inning. When Jimmy's team has to take the field again, Jimmy's HC walks over to notify me of the pitching change (he didn't have to, I can see that it's no longer Jimmy on the mound for warm-ups). Just for casual talk, I said, "Aw, Jimmy was pitching pretty well." "Eh, yeah, but he got that balk warning and we should probably pull him." 

Later, I had balk warnings called for hand separations, blatant start-stop, and the crown-jewel, wherein Blake is pitching from the wind-up, and cruising right along, until he gives up a triple (double with a throwing error). R3 now, and he makes his next pitch from the windup. F2 throws it back to Blake (after pump-faking, like, a dozen times at the R3 taunting him down the line) and says, "Blake! Use the stretch!" Blake looks confused, and engages the rubber, and does this really abbreviated motion of coming set. He looks totally spooked, and lifts his lead foot, steps towards 1B in a rock-step, then lifts it again so as to pitch.

I had to balk him (again, warning).

What are these coaches teaching these days??!! I agree with @basejester's assessment – young ballplayers should be taught how to properly pitch from the set position first. 

[Rich Ives]

"Gotta do it now because they'll need to do it later."  Anyone"real baseball" nut who uses this excuse for requiring 10U (did someone mention 8U) needing to  learn leadoffs and picks needs to agree with this one too: "Let's make them learn trig now because they'll need to use it in high school"

Oh. You don't agree? Why not? It's the same rationale.

[ricka56]

"Gotta do it now because they'll need to do it later."  Anyone"real baseball" nut who uses this excuse for requiring 10U (did someone mention 8U) needing to  learn leadoffs and picks needs to agree with this one too: "Let's make them learn trig now because they'll need to use it in high school"

Oh. You don't agree? Why not? It's the same rationale.

​These days, unless he/she is an AP student, he/she won't need trigonometry in HS...you're dating  yourself.  

U10 can't do the bounce to give F2 a chance to throw  out R1, attempting to steal. If he's old enough to cheat, he's old enough to pay the consequences...yes, mid-level U10s consciously do that around here.

[JHSump]

I do 10U tournaments where leading and stealing are allowed and balks are called. I have seen many 10U pitchers perfectly able to avoid balking. But, I have also seen pitchers that have clearly not been instructed properly by their coaches, and these pitchers balk. In that case, it's the coach's fault. IMO, based on what I have seen, 10 year-olds are perfectly able to not balk. It does not require physical abilities they do not possess. Not balking is easier than running, as a physical skill, and they can all run without falling down.

If leading and stealing are allowed, balks need to be called --- at least the more obvious balks. Otherwie the runners are at a disadvantage.

[Rich Ives]

​These days, unless he/she is an AP student, he/she won't need trigonometry in HS...you're dating  yourself.  

U10 can't do the bounce to give F2 a chance to throw  out R1, attempting to steal. If he's old enough to cheat, he's old enough to pay the consequences...yes, mid-level U10s consciously do that around here.

​Not at all dated - at least if one lives where I live.

Here in NY we have a state exam in trig. HS students have to pass a number of state exams (called Regents Exams) to graduate.

When the state experimented with "integrated math" (not integral calc) trig was part of it. my son (HS Class of 2011) went the integrated route. It has switched back to a more traditional track. He did a lot of AP but no AP Math. He's graduating from Syracuse Magna Cum Laude on Sunday.

 

And if the the whole "gotta play real baseball NOW!" school is correct how did all those pro players that went through no-lead leagues (most of them at the time) ever learn how to do it? It isn't rocket science. It isn't even high school science. Just a bill of goods from "pay me to teach them" clinics.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Rich Ives

[TheRockawayKid]

My favorite "lower-level" balk is when a pitcher has the ball in his free hand in his glove, then steps on the rubber, then takes the ball out of his hand to put it behind his back. Technically, it's a double set, but I never call it. 

[HokieUmp]

I have to say that I .... agree..... with Rich Ives on this.

[Let me take a moment, and let that reality wash over me.]

Okay.  Seriously, there's really no reason for 10U games to have pickoffs and steals and balks.  The HS season is winding down, so we're moving into the rec-ball portion of our program here, and nothing I've seen on the field so far has led me to believe steals at the age group to be A Good Thing.  Yeah, yeah:  "but our level of play is pretty good here...." - no.  No, it's not.  That age bracket is still in the staring at the birds/dandelions/GLMs (an advanced mechanic, to be sure) during the game, and is just learning how to be coordinated enough to play the game.

The only logic I can think of is that you combine that with an "X runs per inning rule," and then you're getting you're runners around to 3rd that much faster.  I can't remember the last time I saw an F2 throw out a runner stealing 2nd, unless an injury or a run-turn-back-oh-wait-run deal was involved.

I DO understand the logic of those that say IF there are steals, THEN balks must be called.  I'm just saying don't allow the stealing in the first place, then.

I won't touch the whole trig discussion, though.  You're on your own for that one, Rich.

[Justin]

​Not at all dated - at least if one lives where I live.

Here in NY we have a state exam in trig. HS students have to pass a number of state exams (called Regents Exams) to graduate.

When the state experimented with "integrated math" (not integral calc) trig was part of it. my son (HS Class of 2011) went the integrated route. It has switched back to a more traditional track. He did a lot of AP but no AP Math. He's graduating from Syracuse Magna Cum Laude on Sunday.

 

And if the the whole "gotta play real baseball NOW!" school is correct how did all those pro players that went through no-lead leagues (most of them at the time) ever learn how to do it? It isn't rocket science. It isn't even high school science. Just a bill of goods from "pay me to teach them" clinics.

​NYS math teacher here. Trig is gone for good as of next fall - this August (or maybe June, I don't remember off the top of my head) will be the last administration of the Algebra II/Trig Regents exam. Trig topics have either been eliminated, pushed down into Geometry (very few topics, mostly basic sine/cosine/tangent calculations), or pushed up into Pre-Calculus (most topics).

Happy to finally chime in on a topic I actually know something about :-)

[RingEmUp]

​NYS math teacher here. Trig is gone for good as of next fall - this August (or maybe June, I don't remember off the top of my head) will be the last administration of the Algebra II/Trig Regents exam. Trig topics have either been eliminated, pushed down into Geometry (very few topics, mostly basic sine/cosine/tangent calculations), or pushed up into Pre-Calculus (most topics).

Happy to finally chime in on a topic I actually know something about :-)

​YES!!! Let's keep dumbing down our students!  I'm working on a BS in Math right now (3rd college degree).

  I think we should teach more advanced concepts of math in HS and lower because we as a nation are way behind the rest of the world.  

[BigUmpire]

How in the world did a discussion on balks turn into a math class discussion?

Kind of funny!

[roothog66]

At levels above rec, I have no problem with open bases and balks being called. For the most part, it isn't that the kids are too young to learn, it's that the coaches are too inexperienced to teach it properly. 75% of coaches at 10u and below don't know what's a balk and what isn't.