Catcher hits batter with throw; do you toss him??

[buckyswider]

Weirdness in Pawtucket the other night (or the other team's park!)

R2 attempted steal of third.  Pitch is a called strike.  Catcher almost punches the batter in the gut as he throws the ball directly into his midsection.  Seems pretty obvious (at least from this vantage point and repeated viewings) that it was intentional.  Do you toss him?   And/or, if this is K3, do you have INT?? 

 

98034083

 

(not sure if MiLB video works with the embed code; here's the link:  http://www.milb.com/multimedia/vpp.jsp?content_id=98034083 )

[grayhawk]

In HS, I am ejecting for MC.  I have a feeling that this is not an ejection in professional baseball, but that F2 is going to take one in the ribs on his next at-bat.

Probably an ejection in NCAA, but would like to hear from the college umpires on the board.

EDIT:  Forgot to answer your question on Interference.  This isn't even close to interference anywhere on the planet, no matter if it's strike 1, 2 or 3.

Edited May 4, 2015 by grayhawk

[noumpere]

Even if it's K3, the batter still can't just disappear.  His rights / responsibilities remain the same on this play as if it was strike 1 or strike 2

 

And, if I judge it to be intentional, I toss -- but I've never seen anything close to that.

[StrikeToWin]

I'm just curious, what happened after that?  Was the catcher tossed?  It looked to me like it was intentional but I've never seen the catcher's normal throwing motion.  A catcher at that level, making that throw like he did.... wow.  If it was 10U "wreck" ball I could see that happening, but c'mon.

[JHSump]

What did happen eventually? F2 walked away and never reappeared in the scene. Meanwhile, near the end of the clip it appears F2's manager is out and talking with PU. The manager has his head down. I would not be shocked if the umpire simply told F2 you are done, and at the end he is explaining that to the manager.

[maven]

That's a dumb play by F2, and he never gets that call (batter INT) in that situation in pro ball, at any level, ever.

BUT: my hypothesis is that he HAS gotten a BI call because the batter so often can't stand still with R2 stealing, thinking he has to do something. And in THAT situation, F2 can often draw the batter INT call.

And, John, there's no MC rule in pro ball, so no basis for an ejection here (nor would one be expected). I'd guess F2's manager is asking, "how is that not batter INT?" F2 might have gone over to the dugout to get away from the guy he plunked.

I'm not sold on MC for a HS game: as I say, my reading of this based solely on the video is dumb, not malicious, play by the catcher, intended to draw a call not to hurt somebody. Stupidity is not an automatic pass on MC...I'd just like MC to be bigger. In a hot game I'd lean MC; otherwise, I'd need more convincing.

[JHSump]

That all makes sense @maven.

[buckyswider]

I think nothing happened.  This happened in the 2nd, and the box shows Quintero getting 3ABs from the 7 hole.  One of the sites mentioning this also says something about Quintero being involved in a bench-clearing brawl later in the game.   No mentions of any ejection in the box, either.  

[Umpire in Chief]

To determine if I would eject. I'd probably have to know "The rest of the story" What happened at previous at bats with the batter or was there a tough defensive play on the catcher.

By itself I just have a dumb play by F2 no Int no ej.

[StrikeDavis]

From the Rays SB Nation Site

The link has a bit more of the story and a video where Quintero starts a bench clearing incident.

[basejester]

I'd dump him, and I think the rules support that.

----

9.01

(d) Each umpire has authority to disqualify any player, coach, manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct or language, and to eject such disqualified person from the playing field. If an umpire disqualifies a player while a play is in progress, the disqualification shall not take effect until no further action is possible in that play.

----

Another place we have the word "unsportsmanlike" is in rule 8, which is specific to pitching at the batter's head.   Unsportsmanlike and malicious are only subtly different.  I think an indifference to the other players' safety is unsportsmanlike even if it is motivated by a desire to win rather than a desire to hurt the other player.

---

8.02 The pitcher shall not—

(d) Intentionally Pitch at the Batter. If, in the umpire’s judgment, such a violation occurs, the umpire may elect either to: 1. Expel the pitcher, or the manager and the pitcher, from the game, or 2. may warn the pitcher and the manager of both teams that another such pitch will result in the immediate expulsion of that pitcher (or a replacement) and the manager. If, in the umpire’s judgment, circumstances warrant, both teams may be officially “warned” prior to the game or at any time during the game. (League Presidents may take additional action under authority provided in Rule 9.05)

Rule 8.02(d) Comment:  Team personnel may not come onto the playing surface to argue or dispute a warning issued under Rule 8.02(d). If a manager, coach or player leaves the dugout or his position to dispute a warning, he should be warned to stop. If he continues, he is subject to ejection. To pitch at a batter’s head is unsportsmanlike and highly dangerous. It should be—and is— condemned by everybody. Umpires should act without hesitation in enforcement of this rule.

 

 

 

 

[GerryB]

Such a nice gesture by the plate umpire!

[ElkOil]

I actually saw something like this last week at an MSBL game.  R2 stealing 3B.  Catcher takes a ball, then stands up and as he's throwing, purposefully falls into the batter and flops on the ground.  It was so obvious, it was comical.  Ball rolls down the 3B line.  F2 jumps and yells, "That's interference!"  I stood there dumbfounded.

"No, it's not," I replied.

"Yes it is!  The batter's like six-five!"

"He can't help how tall he is."

"He has to get out of my way!"  I just shook my head and told him to play on.

Edited May 5, 2015 by ElkOil

[Trakes2]

I've got to say, I'm a little befuddled at how many guys would 'dump' him for this. I don't see it as being eject-able. Stupid, YES! But not anything that warrants an EJ. It wasn't MC in my opinion, just a catcher trying to get a call...Which he never will get. Although and I say this very loosely(and I'm not convinced myself) I guess some credit for trying?...

 

[grayhawk]

I've got to say, I'm a little befuddled at how many guys would 'dump' him for this. I don't see it as being eject-able. Stupid, YES! But not anything that warrants an EJ. It wasn't MC in my opinion, just a catcher trying to get a call...Which he never will get. Although and I say this very loosely(and I'm not convinced myself) I guess some credit for trying?...

 

​I think that's fine - we all see things a little differently.  What I saw was a catcher purposely drill a batter in the stomach at point blank range hard enough to drop the batter (who was not acting, IMO).  In my mind, injuring an opponent with intent passes the MC test.  Plus, it was a dick move.  MC comes in all forms, even ones we've never seen before.

[Trakes2]

​I think that's fine - we all see things a little differently.  What I saw was a catcher purposely drill a batter in the stomach at point blank range hard enough to drop the batter (who was not acting, IMO).  In my mind, injuring an opponent with intent passes the MC test.  Plus, it was a dick move.  MC comes in all forms, even ones we've never seen before.

​The fact that it was a 'Dick Move' has no bearing on an EJ. There are Dick Moves in 90% of the games I do. The catcher tried to gain an advantage, it didn't work. It's nothing, it sucks for the batter--Yes. But it's not that different than going in hard on a slide or laying a tag down in a guys face...And you don't EJ on that. 

[Thunderheads]

I must say I agree with both grayhawk and trakes2 ............

I see both sides, but ...you can EASILY (can) .... support an EJ for unsportsmanlike conduct in high school.

[Trakes2]

I must say I agree with both grayhawk and trakes2 ............

I see both sides, but ...you can EASILY (can) .... support an EJ for unsportsmanlike conduct in high school.

​Okay, fine...But I'm looking at it for what it is and the level at which it is, and there are Gentlemen on here saying they would have EJ'd at that(AAA) level...Not a snowballs chance in hell I'm EJ'ing him at that level...Play Ball!

[ZebraStripes]

​Okay, fine...But I'm looking at it for what it is and the level at which it is, and there are Gentlemen on here saying they would have EJ'd at that(AAA) level...Not a snowballs chance in hell I'm EJ'ing him at that level...Play Ball!

​Would you then eject the pitcher that nails this catcher soon afterward?

[buckyswider]

tomato, tomahto, but I see a pretty big difference in a hard slide and this gut punch.  I've never worked that level  (or anything higher than NCAA Division 3 for that matter) so I can't say for certain how I'd feel it I had that experience, but my gut tells me that I'd eject at any level (assuming I was able to interpret what was happening real time).   If a guy exaggerates his backswing to crack a catcher over the head to prevent him from making a throw, does that also fall under 'just trying to gain an advantage'?  

[Trakes2]

​Would you then eject the pitcher that nails this catcher soon afterward?

​Warnings would be issued. and it would also depend on what happens, does the catcher take one off his ass, or does the pitcher try to stick it in his ear?

[Trakes2]

tomato, tomahto, but I see a pretty big difference in a hard slide and this gut punch.  I've never worked that level  (or anything higher than NCAA Division 3 for that matter) so I can't say for certain how I'd feel it I had that experience, but my gut tells me that I'd eject at any level (assuming I was able to interpret what was happening real time).   If a guy exaggerates his backswing to crack a catcher over the head to prevent him from making a throw, does that also fall under 'just trying to gain an advantage'?  

​So then what your saying is this crew got it wrong? Because he wasn't EJ'd. 

[maineump]

I don't have an ejection at HS or NCAA level. Sure it was a dumba$$ move, and bush league play, but no ejection. My mind reading skills of catchers is not up to snuff, so maybe something happened when the catcher was trying to make the throw that got him out of sink (MAYBE). Definitely no BI on the play, and I am sure at that level retribution is soon to follow. At AAA, I am sure the pitcher got one shot at his hip.

Put the same idea into a HS game - Batter runner gets drilled between the numbers while running to 1B, and he is outside the runners lane. Do you have MC for that?

 

[ZebraStripes]

I don't believe I have ever, before this video, watched a catcher attempt to throw sidearm to third on an attempted stolen base.  More context would prove beneficial.  

[buckyswider]

Ultimately?  Yes.  But this is a case of your head not thinking they could possibly be seeing what was happening, and defaulting to the 'accidental' diagnosis.    But given the luxury of the replay from the different angle I think it's pretty certain that it was not accidental.