Pitcher's Mechanics

[tankmjg24]

NFHS Rules.  Pitcher working out of the set position has a starting point similiar to Craig Kimbrel, expect he has the ball in his hand and it is back behind up up above his head.  The question that my partner and I had was is this an illegal set position due to him not having his pitching hand down at his side or behind his back? 

[maven]

NFHS Rules.  Pitcher working out of the set position has a starting point similiar to Craig Kimbrel, expect he has the ball in his hand and it is back behind up up above his head.  The question that my partner and I had was is this an illegal set position due to him not having his pitching hand down at his side or behind his back? 

 

I'm having trouble understanding the question. Is this the "stretch" you're talking about?

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/6479266/v36672613

 

If so, I'd say that's legal. The ball is in the glove, and the hand is at the side: it's not in front, concealing the ball from runners. The purpose of this rule is to allow runners to see the ball if it's in the throwing hand, which this position permits. So even if your pitcher had the ball in his hand, I'd rule it legal.

 

Remember: ugly or unusual ≠ illegal.

 

Now whether he stops when coming set is another matter....

[ricka56]

Interesting. I am often amazed at how players create new ways to try to get an edge. If the F1 in maven's pic did have the ball in his hand in this initial set position, then going into the stop part of the set position might look like a pickoff in progress. But just because it is deceptive doesn't mean it is illegal. If you think he's aborting a pickoff, its a balk, otherwise I don't have anything illegal.

 

And if this F1 is known for this setup, I wouldn't be the only guy in my asso. (THAT GUY) that balks him. 

 

editted: I just hit the play button (thought that it was a still pic). If F1 had the ball in his pitching hand, it would just be an adaptation of the gorilla arm initial setup. Legal in Fed as long as he's not swinging the arm. Legal everywhere else, I believe.

[Kevin_K]

I might advise F1 to not do that in FED.

 

As per the case book:

 

6.1.3 SITUATION Q:

With a runner on first, Team A right-handed pitcher is in the set position, bent at the waist and his pitching arm naturally hangs down slightly in front or to the side away from his body. As he looks to the catcher for a signal, a) the pitcher's arm is stationary or b) the pitching arm rocks slightly from side to side.

RULING: In a), the position of the arm is natural and can be considered by his side in meeting the rule. Any movement would then start the pitch. In b), any movement of the arm is considered the start of the pitching motion and a pitch must be delivered to the plate so this motion results in a balk.

 

If he continued, I would then balk him. I don't get to pick the rules I like and ignore the other ones. That said, if I saw this in a game before seeing it here, I might have not thought it illegal.

 

Thanks UE.

[maven]

There is no rule requiring the position of the arm to be natural. The case you have cited is the basis for allowing the non-swinging "gorilla arm," which does not in itself satisfy the requirement that the pitching arm be at the side or back.

 

Again: the point of this rule is to prevent F1 from hiding the ball in his pitching hand in front of his body. Since the non-swinging gorilla arm makes the ball visible to runners, we allow it by interpretation.

 

Since there is no requirement that the arm position be "natural," the fact that Kimbrel's arm position is not natural is no basis for a balk call. Ruling a balk is incorrect; advising F1 not to do that has no basis in the rules.

[MadMax]

editted: I just hit the play button (thought that it was a still pic). If F1 had the ball in his pitching hand, it would just be an adaptation of the gorilla arm initial setup. Legal in Fed as long as he's not swinging the arm. Legal everywhere else, I believe.

Yeah, @ricka56, there are these fantastic new things called "movies" that are pictures that move!

Seriously, what constitutes swinging?

[maven]

Whether the arm is swinging is umpire judgment.

[MadMax]

Whether the arm is swinging is umpire judgment.

 

Right, so what would you advise to use as a benchmark?

[johnnyg08]

 

Whether the arm is swinging is umpire judgment.

 

Right, so what would you advise to use as a benchmark?

 

 

A moving arm.  The gorilla arm is only legal if it is not moving.  

[maven]

Whether the arm is swinging is umpire judgment.

Right, so what would you advise to use as a benchmark?

Yeah, movement.

If it's borderline, send F2 out to tell him. Like a borderline stop in the set.

[Jimurray]

There is no rule requiring the position of the arm to be natural. The case you have cited is the basis for allowing the non-swinging "gorilla arm," which does not in itself satisfy the requirement that the pitching arm be at the side or back.

Again: the point of this rule is to prevent F1 from hiding the ball in his pitching hand in front of his body. Since the non-swinging gorilla arm makes the ball visible to runners, we allow it by interpretation.

Since there is no requirement that the arm position be "natural," the fact that Kimbrel's arm position is not natural is no basis for a balk call. Ruling a balk is incorrect; advising F1 not to do that has no basis in the rules.

Kimbrell actually complies with the OBR rule. He has one arm at his side.

[Jimurray]

I might advise F1 to not do that in FED.

 

As per the case book:

 

6.1.3 SITUATION Q:

With a runner on first, Team A right-handed pitcher is in the set position, bent at the waist and his pitching arm naturally hangs down slightly in front or to the side away from his body. As he looks to the catcher for a signal, a) the pitcher's arm is stationary or b) the pitching arm rocks slightly from side to side.

RULING: In a), the position of the arm is natural and can be considered by his side in meeting the rule. Any movement would then start the pitch. In b), any movement of the arm is considered the start of the pitching motion and a pitch must be delivered to the plate so this motion results in a balk.

 

If he continued, I would then balk him. I don't get to pick the rules I like and ignore the other ones. That said, if I saw this in a game before seeing it here, I might have not thought it illegal.

 

Thanks UE.

A little nitpick about this caseplay. Any movement of the gorilla arm would commit the pitcher to coming set, not the start of the pitching motion. But a pitcher in the set, prior to coming set, can shake his arm or adjust his hat or whatever if you judge it as not starting to come set per another FED caseplay.

[Jimurray]

There is no rule requiring the position of the arm to be natural. The case you have cited is the basis for allowing the non-swinging "gorilla arm," which does not in itself satisfy the requirement that the pitching arm be at the side or back.

 

Again: the point of this rule is to prevent F1 from hiding the ball in his pitching hand in front of his body. Since the non-swinging gorilla arm makes the ball visible to runners, we allow it by interpretation.

 

Since there is no requirement that the arm position be "natural," the fact that Kimbrel's arm position is not natural is no basis for a balk call. Ruling a balk is incorrect; advising F1 not to do that has no basis in the rules.

I don't understand why FED and NCAA want the runner to know which hand the ball is in. The OBR rule only requires a position that allows the runner to know when the pitcher is coming set.

[noumpere]

 

There is no rule requiring the position of the arm to be natural. The case you have cited is the basis for allowing the non-swinging "gorilla arm," which does not in itself satisfy the requirement that the pitching arm be at the side or back.

 

Again: the point of this rule is to prevent F1 from hiding the ball in his pitching hand in front of his body. Since the non-swinging gorilla arm makes the ball visible to runners, we allow it by interpretation.

 

Since there is no requirement that the arm position be "natural," the fact that Kimbrel's arm position is not natural is no basis for a balk call. Ruling a balk is incorrect; advising F1 not to do that has no basis in the rules.

I don't understand why FED and NCAA want the runner to know which hand the ball is in. The OBR rule only requires a position that allows the runner to know when the pitcher is coming set.

 

They don't, really.  The reason for the rule is the same in all codes, even if FED has to be al ittle anal about it given the wider diaprity in umpiring abilioties, the greater number of umpires, and, some cynics would say, the greater opportunities for coaches to bend the rules to their advantage.

[tankmjg24]

So it is hard to describe fully. He is not in the gorilla arm stance. The ball is in his hand which is about a foot above his head and pointed directly at 2nd base.

[Kevin_K]

@maven & @Jimurray.... I am not trying to be obtuse here.

 

If the Fed rule says,"his pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back" and a case book refers to the arm being in a natural position, how would what  @tankmjg24 is describing or what Kimbrel did not illegal under FED rules?

 

Are these arm positions "natural"? His pitching hand certainly is not at his side or behind his back.

 

I understand about the gorilla arm interpretations, but these seem to be something other than gorilla arm.

[Jimurray]

@maven & @Jimurray.... I am not trying to be obtuse here.

 

If the Fed rule says,"his pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back" and a case book refers to the arm being in a natural position, how would what  @tankmjg24 is describing or what Kimbrel did not illegal under FED rules?

 

Are these arm positions "natural"? His pitching hand certainly is not at his side or behind his back.

 

I understand about the gorilla arm interpretations, but these seem to be something other than gorilla arm.

The gorilla arm is not at his side or behind his back either and is deemed natural which is not addressed in the rule. Ask yourself if anybody is dissadvantaged by the pitcher's stance. IMHO knowing which hand the ball is in is not important. Knowing when the pitcher is set is important.

[Jimurray]

There is no rule requiring the position of the arm to be natural. The case you have cited is the basis for allowing the non-swinging "gorilla arm," which does not in itself satisfy the requirement that the pitching arm be at the side or back.

Again: the point of this rule is to prevent F1 from hiding the ball in his pitching hand in front of his body. Since the non-swinging gorilla arm makes the ball visible to runners, we allow it by interpretation.

Since there is no requirement that the arm position be "natural," the fact that Kimbrel's arm position is not natural is no basis for a balk call. Ruling a balk is incorrect; advising F1 not to do that has no basis in the rules.

I don't understand why FED and NCAA want the runner to know which hand the ball is in. The OBR rule only requires a position that allows the runner to know when the pitcher is coming set.

They don't, really. The reason for the rule is the same in all codes, even if FED has to be al ittle anal about it given the wider diaprity in umpiring abilioties, the greater number of umpires, and, some cynics would say, the greater opportunities for coaches to bend the rules to their advantage. Unfortunately, there is some wording in both codes about hiding the ball or something similar.

[noumpere]

 

Unfortunately, there is some wording in both codes about hiding the ball or something similar.

 

I don't have the books handy to check it out, but I think that what they mean is "let the runner see enough of th hands to know whether they are joined or not".

 

It's to avoid (for example) having the pitcher stand fairly upright with both hands on the front of his hips.  R1 can't tell whether F1 is set (hands joined) or not (hands not joined).

[Thunderheads]

@maven & @Jimurray.... I am not trying to be obtuse here.

 

If the Fed rule says,"his pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back" and a case book refers to the arm being in a natural position, how would what  @tankmjg24 is describing or what Kimbrel did not illegal under FED rules?

 

Are these arm positions "natural"? His pitching hand certainly is not at his side or behind his back.

 

I understand about the gorilla arm interpretations, but these seem to be something other than gorilla arm.

Kevin,

You're nit-picking.  Ready maven's post again (post #5)

Not being a jerk, ...you're just splitting hairs here where it's not necessary

[maven]

I had two further thoughts about this thread. It's not just a rules issue, it's a game management issue.

1. @noumpere corrects something I posted: the rationale for the rule about the position of the throwing hand prior to coming set is about knowing when the hands come together, not knowing where the ball is. I knew that; don't know what I was thinking.
2. A number of posters don't like this position (or probably anything goofy looking), and therefore look for ways to balk it or otherwise rule it illegal. For me, that's backwards: the hardest thing about HS baseball is getting decent pitching and keeping pitchers' heads in the game.

When something is clearly illegal and a balk by black-letter rule, then we have no choice but to balk it.

 

When it is borderline, we use preventive umpiring: that almost no-stop needs a warning, not a balk call. If he doesn't get the message, well that's on him.

 

If you don't know whether it's even borderline but it sure looks goofy as all get-out, then you should allow it on the grounds that whatever is not clearly illegal by rule must be legal. Ultimately, you will need to think about the purpose of the rule in order to try to satisfy that purpose, but it's often hard to do that in the heat of the moment and without some resources.

 

In this case, we need to be able to see when the hands come together from all over the infield. Nothing about "The Kimbrel" prevents our doing that. A throwing hand that is not in front of the body must be somewhere, presumably by the side or in back. Even if you're hung up on the phrase "DOWN by his side," Kimbrel's hand IS hanging down. Legal.

 

Keep your pitchers as happy and as undistracted as possible, and they'll throw better pitches and move your game along. Once their head leaves the game, they start grooving every pitch (and suddenly the score is 27-3), or else start throwing 57 foot fastballs.

[Jimurray]

I had two further thoughts about this thread. It's not just a rules issue, it's a game management issue.

• @noumpere corrects something I posted: the rationale for the rule about the position of the throwing hand prior to coming set is about knowing when the hands come together, not knowing where the ball is. I knew that; don't know what I was thinking.
• A number of posters don't like this position (or probably anything goofy looking), and therefore look for ways to balk it or otherwise rule it illegal. For me, that's backwards: the hardest thing about HS baseball is getting decent pitching and keeping pitchers' heads in the game.

When something is clearly illegal and a balk by black-letter rule, then we have no choice but to balk it.

When it is borderline, we use preventive umpiring: that almost no-stop needs a warning, not a balk call. If he doesn't get the message, well that's on him.

If you don't know whether it's even borderline but it sure looks goofy as all get-out, then you should allow it on the grounds that whatever is not clearly illegal by rule must be legal. Ultimately, you will need to think about the purpose of the rule in order to try to satisfy that purpose, but it's often hard to do that in the heat of the moment and without some resources.

In this case, we need to be able to see when the hands come together from all over the infield. Nothing about "The Kimbrel" prevents our doing that. A throwing hand that is not in front of the body must be somewhere, presumably by the side or in back. Even if you're hung up on the phrase "DOWN by his side," Kimbrel's hand IS hanging down. Legal.

Keep your pitchers as happy and as undistracted as possible, and they'll throw better pitches and move your game along. Once their head leaves the game, they start grooving every pitch (and suddenly the score is 27-3), or else start throwing 57 foot fastballs.

OBR does not care which arm is at the side. Either one will suffice.

Edited to add a WUM quote: "before assuming the Set position the pitcher must have one or both hands either hanging, or at his side."

WUM also says the arm may swing.