Tie goes to the runner

[Guest alan nolten]

Can someone please tell me where this can be found in any rule book? Or has it simply been stated so often that it has become an assumed rule of the game with no basis in truth.

[Jocko]

This is an ongoing debate, even amongst umpires. But no, the tie does NOT go to the runner. You'll hear others chime in with opposing views. The wording in the rulebook is what has fed this debate, but the actual words "tie goes to runner" do not exist in any rule book.

And, this isn't evenly divided. I'd guess-timate it's a 90-10 split. Most guys will agree with my stance on this particular rumor.

[cyclonehokiece]

The runner beats the throw (safe) or does not (out). That is where umpire judgment comes in on those real whackers.

[Thunderheads]

I believe that this got to be some sort of a "pseudo-rule" because .....  if the runner and ball arrive at the same time,....then the throw didn't beat the runner ....thus safe.

 

I don't necessarily come from that camp, I'm just guessing as to where it derived.

[basejester]

An actual tie in the physics sense is astronomically unlikely.  As in, it's safe to say there's never been a tie.

 

Hypothetically, should such an improbable event actually occur and an umpire possessed a superhuman ability to detect it, the rules would support a safe call.

 

6.05 A batter is out when—

. . .

(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he
touches first base;

 

When a fan yells, 'Tie goes to the runner!" from the stands, he's just saying, "Really close plays should go to the offense, which coincidentally happens to be the team I am rooting for."  The rules do not support "really close plays go to the offense."

[Thunderheads]

An actual tie in the physics sense is astronomically unlikely.  As in, it's safe to say there's never been a tie.

 

Hypothetically, should such an improbable event actually occur, the rules would support a safe call.

 

6.05 A batter is out when—

. . .

(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he

touches first base;

 

When a fan yells, 'Tie goes to the runner!" from the stands, he's just saying, "Really close plays should go to the offense, which coincidentally happen to be the team I am rooting for."  The rules do not support "really close plays goes to the offense."

This is actually a much better version of my post above it!

[BillKen]

Ties go to the umpire!  We get to decide!  It is the greatest part of umpiring!

 

Great defensive play--Out.  Sloppy Defense--Safe  Great hustle to 1st by a fat kid--safe  Batter's team losing by 8--Safe  Defense down by 7--out.  Two outs in the bottom of the last inning--definitely out.

 

 

The game situation often determines who we give the benefit of the doubt to.  Nothing happens in a vacuum.

[BigUmpire]

Tie goes to the umpire.

OUT!

[FleasOf1000Camels]

I'll chime in supporting what several others have said.

You will not find "tie goes to the runner" in print ANYWHERE...in any rule book, case book or training manual, BUT

Since the throw/tag must occur BEFORE the runner hits the bag, if there ever was a 'tie' it would go to the runner.

 

I've been around baseball for over 50 years, and I've NEVER seen a tie.

Good umpires are blessed with super-human ability to define time down to the tiniest fraction of a second.

It's our job to be certain that there are no ties.  

[Thunderheads]

I'll chime in supporting what several others have said.

You will not find "tie goes to the runner" in print ANYWHERE...in any rule book, case book or training manual, BUT

Since the throw/tag must occur BEFORE the runner hits the bag, if there ever was a 'tie' it would go to the runner.

 

I've been around baseball for over 50 years, and I've NEVER seen  heard a tie.

Good umpires are blessed with super-human ability to define time down to the tiniest fraction of a second.

It's our job to be certain that there are no ties.  

fixed!

[JHSump]

This topic has been discussed before.  But, I'd like to add something that might be new., two somethings actually.

 

As @Rich Ives said in another post:

 

"A tie DOES go to the runner at first base and for force plays. The only possible umpiring issue is whether or not a tie is possible. Trying to redefine the meaning of “before†sometimes enters the discussion too.

 

6.05 A batter is out when—

(j) After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base;

 

Same here:

 

7.08 Any runner is out when—

(e) He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

 

So if it's a tie, he or the base was not tagged before he touched the base so he's safe."

 

Ok, here's my "two somethings."

 

1) The online OBR for 2010 says 7.08(e) is changed to what Rich has above --- http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/downloads/y2010/official_rules/2010_OfficialBaseballRules.pdf

I can't find a 2009 (or earlier) OBR online.  Maybe I didn't look hard enough.  But I have a paper copy from 1994.  In it 7.08(e) says,

"He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner."  The change in 2010 made 7.08(e) consistent with 6.05(j).  Prior to 2010, it appears, you could cite both these rules as being inconsistent, and leaving it up to the umpire as to how to rule on a tie.  But now it appears a runner is out on a force only if the ball beats him to the bag.  I am only discussing the rules here, not the possibility of an actual tie.  Or whether it is humanly possible to discern a tie.

 

2) Ok, now to discuss perception.  If the play is close enough, you will not be able to tell which came first, the tag of the base or the step of the runner on the base.  If an umpire perceives a tie, what is he to call?  This is a "borderline" situation.  How is one to call a borderline situation?  For calling a pitch we are always saying to call borderline pitches strikes --- giving the benefit of doubt to the pitcher, for reasons discussed elsewhere on the forum.  On the other hand, I have heard it said (or read it somewhere) that on ground balls that pass 1B or 3B and are borderline between fair and foul, one should call those fair.  The reasoning being we give the pitcher the benefit of the doubt on borderline pitches, but for these ground balls we give the batter the benefit of the doubt --- to sort of even things up, and because the batter beat the pitcher.

 

Now, given that discussion of borderline cases, what is one to call on a borderline force play?  Who gets the benefit of the doubt?  I know the obvious answer is "tie goes to the umpire."  But, more in line with the discussion of the borderline pitch and borderline fair/foul call, who should get the benefit of the doubt on a borderline, perceived, tie in a force play?  The offense or the defense?

 

One could still say a perceived tie is an out, just like a perceived borderline pitch is a strike, simply because a real tie is *impossible* to judge, and so one gives the benefit to the defense.  But one could go the other way.

 

So, what do others think, from this point of view?

[maven]

Baseball is a defensive game: it's the only game where the defense controls the ball.

 

Good baseball exhibits good defense: games are better and more fun for everyone when fewer than 13 total runs are scored (at any level). Players play, coaches coach, pitchers pitch, and umpires umpire.

 

When in doubt, favor the defense.

[noumpere]

 

 

So, what do others think, from this point of view?

I dont' default to calling borderline pitches strikes, and I don't default to calling borderline batted balls fair, and I don't default to calling borderline "force" plays either safe or out.

 

If you do default to any of the above (or the opposite, of course), then those aren't really borderline anymore and the next pitch that's a RCH further outside will be borderline and will always be a strike so it's really the next RCH that makes it borderline, etc until the reasoning just falls apart.

 

Try to get every pitch / play right and call what you see.  Work on seeing the finer details / distinctions, don't work on figuring out what the default should be.

[BigUmpire]

Baseball is a defensive game: it's the only game where the defense controls the ball.

 

Good baseball exhibits good defense: games are better and more fun for everyone when fewer than 13 total runs are scored (at any level). Players play, coaches coach, pitchers pitch, and umpires umpire.

 

When in doubt, favor the defense.

There is a reason this umpire leads the pack with 27 " best answers" on this forum.

[goody14]

Baseball is a defensive game: it's the only game where the defense controls the ball.

 

Good baseball exhibits good defense: games are better and more fun for everyone when fewer than 13 total runs are scored (at any level). Players play, coaches coach, pitchers pitch, and umpires umpire.

 

When in doubt, favor the defense.

Agree with all that is said....

 

With that said by me, how did you come up with 13 as the magic number of runs?

 

I know to properly and randomly allocate a deck of cards, you should shuffle 7 times (this has actually been tested), but have never heard of a magic number of runs that make up a good game.  

 

Was this number pulled out for fun or are you basing it on some theory. 

[grozzly]

Ties go to the umpire! 

 

 

The only rule.

[noumpere]

 

Ties go to the umpire! 

 

 

The only rule.

 

9.01© is the only rule.

[MPLSMatt]

Forget that ties exist (because really, they don't).  Coach comes out and wants tie goes to the runner don't engage in the debate about whether he's right or wrong, tell him "coach, the throw beat the runner."   Thinking this way will also reduce the number of ties that you "think" you see.  Get it through your head that something will happen first (foot down or pop of the glove) and you'll start seeing more plays that way.  

[Magic]

I was told once by a veteran umpire, that a batter/runner is safe until proven out. Made sense to me 20 years ago.

[Umpiresoftball]

I was told once by a veteran umpire, that a batter/runner is safe until proven out. Made sense to me 20 years ago.

I have work with umpire who believes that he thinks everything a stirke till proven not.

[spiritump]

in order for the runner to be safe, he must beat the ball--if it is a tie--he did not beat the ball so he is out.

[umpire_scott]

Ties go to the umpire!  We get to decide!  It is the greatest part of umpiring!

 

Great defensive play--Out.  Sloppy Defense--Safe  Great hustle to 1st by a fat kid--safe  Batter's team losing by 8--Safe  Defense down by 7--out.  Two outs in the bottom of the last inning--definitely out.

 

 

The game situation often determines who we give the benefit of the doubt to.  Nothing happens in a vacuum.

 

I agree with all of this except "Batter's team losing by 8-Safe".  If anyone is losing by 8-out!

 

In reality I don't really even think about game situation when I'm making the call.  I call what I believe I saw.  Now if I look at a play and am just flummoxed at what I saw and it seems like it was a tie I may quickly consider what happened in the play.  If the F6 dove to the ground and made a great play I may call the out.  Where as is F4 lobbed the ball over to F3 and made the play that close I may call the BR safe.  But 9 times out of 10 I just make the call based on what I believe I saw or heard happen first. 

[Rich Ives]

in order for the runner to be safe, he must beat the ball--if it is a tie--he did not beat the ball so he is out.

 

Not true. The throw must beat the runner. Go read the rules in post #11

[Umpiresoftball]

 

in order for the runner to be safe, he must beat the ball--if it is a tie--he did not beat the ball so he is out.

 

Not true. The throw must beat the runner. Go read the rules in post #11

 

But either way the a tie does not mean the runner beat the ball though...

[Rich Ives]

 

 

in order for the runner to be safe, he must beat the ball--if it is a tie--he did not beat the ball so he is out.

 

Not true. The throw must beat the runner. Go read the rules in post #11

 

But either way the a tie does not mean the runner beat the ball though...

 

 

The runner does not have to beat the ball. The ball has to beat the runner. Go read the rules.

[BigUmpire]

 

 

 

in order for the runner to be safe, he must beat the ball--if it is a tie--he did not beat the ball so he is out.

 

Not true. The throw must beat the runner. Go read the rules in post #11

 

But either way the a tie does not mean the runner beat the ball though...

 

 

The runner does not have to beat the ball. The ball has to beat the runner. Go read the rules.

 

By rule Snarky Rich is right.