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Tag up appeal

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Here's the situation:

 

11U tournament game following high school rules. Runner on second and third two outs. There is a two umpire crew. A fly ball is hit to medium deep centerfield. The catch is made and runner from third tags and comes home. The runner on second also tags (or fails to tag) and advances to third. On the play, the ball is thrown home for a possible play. It is fielded cleanly by the catcher. His coach tells him to throw to second. He does, and the second baseman steps on second base. The field umpire signals and vocally says: "safe!" The coach of the defensive team calls time. He talks to the home plate umpire for some three to four minutes. He walks back to the dugout. The umpire puts the ball in play. The pitcher steps off and throws to second. The homeplate umpire then calls the runner who failed to tag, out. The field ump did not ask for help on the call.

 

I argued the call on the following: 

 

• The throw to second by the catcher on the original play was a legal and acknowledged appeal and the field umpire, who was at second base, called the player safe. The second appeal was illegal because it was the same appeal, on the same player, at the same base and only one such appeal is allowed. 

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7.10: Successive appeals may not be made on a runner at the same base. If the defensive team on its first appeal errs, a request for a second appeal on the same runner at the same base shall not be allowed by the umpire. (Intended meaning of the word err is that the defensive team in making an appeal threw the ball out of play. For example, if the pitcher threw to first base to appeal and threw the ball into the stands, no second appeal would be allowed.)

 

Sounds like you have an argument here.  First what a terrible job by PU for throwing his partner under the bus.  Second,Even if the BU got the call wrong, you can't have a second appeal. What the defensive manager should have done was gone out to the BU and asked him to get some help with the PU, instead of going straight to PU

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He said high school rules (which may or may not be Fed), so 7.10 probably doesn't apply.  However, this whole thing is a cluster:

 

1.  This is BU's call - period.

2.  There was a valid, live ball appeal properly made.

3.  There is no reason, whatsoever, for PU to step on BU's call here.  If he was my partner, we are having a very direct talk after the game.

 

All I could find on multiple appeals in Fed is 8-2-6f:

 

More than one appeal.  Multiple appeals are permitted as long as they do not become a travesty of the game.

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I don't think the second appeal was an invalid appeal, because I think it was more of a reversal of the ruling on the first appeal. Albeit, a very poor reversal. Grayhawk and I are on the same page about the discussion that would take place with the PU after the game. And depending on his responses during the talk, he might end up on my scratch list for partners.

 

Tim.

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More than one appeal.  Multiple appeals are permitted as long as they do not become a travesty of the game.

 

grayhawk, this rule permits the defense to appeal different runners, not the same runner at the same base with different umpires. The latter would be covered by the manual, which prohibits one umpire from overruling another.

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The umps went through the motions of putting the ball in play.  This means one of the following

 

1) Time had been called and the rules were NOT FED rules as FED allows dead ball appeals.

2) It was FED rules and the umpires blew it.

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The umps went through the motions of putting the ball in play.  This means one of the following

 

1) Time had been called and the rules were NOT FED rules as FED allows dead ball appeals.

2) It was FED rules and the umpires blew it.

regarding number 1 - a team does not have to make a dead ball appeal so if the runner was at third and they don't ask for a dead ball appeal Im not going to just rule on it.  If a team wants to make the ball live and risk throwing it away ...

 

But I agree with the general point that the umpires (at least the PU) stunk it up here.

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The umps went through the motions of putting the ball in play.  This means one of the following

 

1) Time had been called and the rules were NOT FED rules as FED allows dead ball appeals.

2) It was FED rules and the umpires blew it.

regarding number 1 - a team does not have to make a dead ball appeal so if the runner was at third and they don't ask for a dead ball appeal Im not going to just rule on it.  If a team wants to make the ball live and risk throwing it away ...

 

 

 

 

it was 11u....ill bet 3 game fees the coach had no idea he could dead ball appeal

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More than one appeal.  Multiple appeals are permitted as long as they do not become a travesty of the game.

 

grayhawk, this rule permits the defense to appeal different runners, not the same runner at the same base with different umpires. The latter would be covered by the manual, which prohibits one umpire from overruling another.

 

 

I agree with you - I just couldn't find the Fed equivalent of 7.10 that specifically makes it illegal to appeal the same runner at the same base multiple times.  I guess the language from the umpire manual prohibiting one umpire from overruling another is as good as it gets since it would be fruitless to appeal the same runner at the same base to the same umpire multiple times.

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I agree with you - I just couldn't find the Fed equivalent of 7.10 that specifically makes it illegal to appeal the same runner at the same base multiple times.  I guess the language from the umpire manual prohibiting one umpire from overruling another is as good as it gets since it would be fruitless to appeal the same runner at the same base to the same umpire multiple times.

 

 

Player: "Blue, we're appealing the runner not properly tagging at second."

 

Umpire: "The runner is safe."

 

Player: "Do you mean it?"

 

Umpire: "Yes."

 

Player: "Do you really-really mean it?"

 

Umpire: "Yes, I really-really mean it."

 

Player: "Really?"

 

 

Multiple appeals to the same umpire on the same runner at the same base........

 

 

Tim.

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The umps went through the motions of putting the ball in play.  This means one of the following

 

1) Time had been called and the rules were NOT FED rules as FED allows dead ball appeals.

2) It was FED rules and the umpires blew it.

regarding number 1 - a team does not have to make a dead ball appeal so if the runner was at third and they don't ask for a dead ball appeal Im not going to just rule on it.  If a team wants to make the ball live and risk throwing it away ...

 

 

 

 

it was 11u....ill bet 3 game fees the coach had no idea he could dead ball appeal

 

 

Don't make - the umpires made them put the ball in play so if FED then the umpires didn't know the rule..

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Don't make - the umpires made them put the ball in play so if FED then the umpires didn't know the rule..

 

 

 

Based on what they knew about basic umpire etiquette, it's not a stretch to assume they didn't know the rules either.

 

Tim.

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The umps went through the motions of putting the ball in play.  This means one of the following

 

1) Time had been called and the rules were NOT FED rules as FED allows dead ball appeals.

2) It was FED rules and the umpires blew it.

regarding number 1 - a team does not have to make a dead ball appeal so if the runner was at third and they don't ask for a dead ball appeal Im not going to just rule on it.  If a team wants to make the ball live and risk throwing it away ...

 

 

 

 

it was 11u....ill bet 3 game fees the coach had no idea he could dead ball appeal

99.99% of the youth ball that uses "FED" rules have no idea what that means. It sounds cool. 89.99% of the high school coaches don't know what "FED" rules are.

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The umps went through the motions of putting the ball in play.  This means one of the following

 

1) Time had been called and the rules were NOT FED rules as FED allows dead ball appeals.

2) It was FED rules and the umpires blew it.

regarding number 1 - a team does not have to make a dead ball appeal so if the runner was at third and they don't ask for a dead ball appeal Im not going to just rule on it.  If a team wants to make the ball live and risk throwing it away ...

 

 

 

 

it was 11u....ill bet 3 game fees the coach had no idea he could dead ball appeal

 

 

Don't make - the umpires made them put the ball in play so if FED then the umpires didn't know the rule..

 

I don't see that the umpires "MADE" them put the ball in play.

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I wonder what the heck they were talking about for 3+ minutes.  I would think, with time granted, that at some point the coach told PU that he wanted to appeal that R2 left early.  If PU knew Fed rules and agreed that R2 left early, he could have granted the appeal and called R2 out on the spot.

 

Of course, what he SHOULD have done was tell the coach that his partner, who was responsible to see the retouch, already ruled that he didn't leave early so there is nothing left to discuss.

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Also, please tell me they at least counted R3's run on this time play.

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Guest eastsidecoach

R3's run did count. The home plate ump, in my opinion, was very unprofessional during the entire game — having first name conversation with our opposing coach between every inning, losing count of the number of warm up pitches being thrown. Taking out his gum and throwing toward our on deck circle numerous times. I could go on. It was an ugly day. We reported him to the tourney director and to his local association.

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R3's run did count. The home plate ump, in my opinion, was very unprofessional during the entire game — having first name conversation with our opposing coach between every inning, losing count of the number of warm up pitches being thrown. Taking out his gum and throwing toward our on deck circle numerous times. I could go on. It was an ugly day. We reported him to the tourney director and to his local association.

 

Sounds like you had an 11U umpire for an 11U game.  At that age both the kids and the umpires are still learning.  Umpiring is a difficult thing to learn to do well and most of those that do learn move up to higher levels.  This home plate ump kicked the call and ran over his partner with the bus, but those things happen to newer umps.  I hope your argument was professional and non-personal.  I don't blame you for going to the TD, I just hope that it was down without making a scene on the field.  

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R3's run did count. The home plate ump, in my opinion, was very unprofessional during the entire game — having first name conversation with our opposing coach between every inning, losing count of the number of warm up pitches being thrown. Taking out his gum and throwing toward our on deck circle numerous times. I could go on. It was an ugly day. We reported him to the tourney director and to his local association.

 

The reason we introduce ourselves at the plate meeting is so we can call each other by name.  I address both head coaches by first name and my expectation is that they address me by my first name as well.  Alas, I am usually just called "Blue" to which I take no offense (other than the fact that the coach didn't bother to remember me by name).  Some umpires take great offense to being called "Blue."

 

That said, I am NOT having conversations with either head coach between innings, unless it has to do with changes or other official business.  Doesn't mean I ignore them when addressed, but I will not prolong a casual conversation by actively participating.  The reason is perception - the other coach (or players, or fans) then thinks we're buddies (much like your perception as described above).

 

As Matt says, it sounds like you got an inexperienced PU, which made for a frustrating day.  Hopefully, he gets proper training and improves, or decides to do something else.

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That said, I am NOT having conversations with either head coach between innings, unless it has to do with changes or other official business.  Doesn't mean I ignore them when addressed, but I will not prolong a casual conversation by actively participating.  The reason is perception - the other coach (or players, or fans) then thinks we're buddies (much like your perception as described above).

I agree, and I'd like to add another reason: I need a break!

 

Whether I'm PU or BU, during every moment the ball is live, I'm focused and alert, concentrating on the situation and my responsibilities. I get to relax for a few moments between half innings, and if I'm jawing with people then I'm not taking a break.

 

I've found that my concentration in late innings and later games improves if I take advantage of this "down time" to actually be down — though I do draw the line at napping. :)

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Guest Guest

I agree. I don't mind umps having a brief conversation about game related things or even generic things like the weather, etc. What  gets to me are first name conversations like: "Pete, you plan on being at Bill's party after you take care of these guys?" 

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