When to Call Time on Feint to 3rd

[zoops]

OBR.  Runners on 1st and 3rd with a RHP who does the feint to third.  You call "that's a balk," and then he pivots and throws wildly to first (basically your standard 5-3 pickoff move).  R3 scores and R1 goes all the way to third.  Should this be allowed to stay live or should it be killed when he feinted to third?  I know you generally look for a pause or completion of the play before you call it dead, but thought I would check on this new scenario.  

[dmills]

From OBR... 

 

 

APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to a 

base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which 

he is entitled at his own risk. 

[zoops]

I'm aware of that wording.  Just wondering if the step and fake to third and then the spin to first would be reason to kill the play.  I'm guessing not...

[Stan W.]

Balks are only dead balls in NFHS rules..........in OBR the ball stays live...............what would cause you to kill the play?

[Replacematt]

Kill it once the feint is completed. The ball is only kept alive on the initial act. MLBUM 7.9(1).

[maven]

Balks are only dead balls in NFHS rules..........in OBR the ball stays live...............what would cause you to kill the play?

 

Sometimes the ball stays live, if a no-stop balk is followed by a pitch, or a knee-pop balk is followed by a wild throw to 1B.

 

As Matt points out, the ball remains live only through the initial act. Once the feint to 3B is complete, so is the initial act. Kill it and enforce the balk.

[MadMax]

We have been informed, though, that 3B Feint / 1B Throw as a Balk Ruling has only been implemented by MLBR, not by NFHS rules _yet_. Our league (U14 and lower) has reminded us that our default rules set is NFHS, and since it (the move) has not been adopted by NFHS in time for this season (word is it will be for next year), it is still _not_ a balk.

[zoops]

 

Balks are only dead balls in NFHS rules..........in OBR the ball stays live...............what would cause you to kill the play?

 

Sometimes the ball stays live, if a no-stop balk is followed by a pitch, or a knee-pop balk is followed by a wild throw to 1B.

 

As Matt points out, the ball remains live only through the initial act. Once the feint to 3B is complete, so is the initial act. Kill it and enforce the balk.

 

Interesting...for those confused on what I was asking, Matt and Maven's answers address what I was asking.  MadMax, we're using OBR here, but you are correct, in NFHS this is not a balk -yet.  

[MadMax]

Interesting...for those confused on what I was asking, Matt and Maven's answers address what I was asking.  MadMax, we're using OBR here, but you are correct, in NFHS this is not a balk -yet.

@zoops - And I only added this insight to clarify what a league's _default_ rules set may be, because as soon as Stan mentioned the context of NFHS, even I could see where confusion may arise. I guess the reminder here, too, is know which rules set your league defaults to.

[James Walker]

Balks are only dead balls in NFHS rules..........in OBR the ball stays live...............what would cause you to kill the play?

Sometimes the ball stays live, if a no-stop balk is followed by a pitch, or a knee-pop balk is followed by a wild throw to 1B.

As Matt points out, the ball remains live only through the initial act. Once the feint to 3B is complete, so is the initial act. Kill it and enforce the balk.

Interesting...for those confused on what I was asking, Matt and Maven's answers address what I was asking. MadMax, we're using OBR here, but you are correct, in NFHS this is not a balk -yet.

Need to be careful, some OBR based leagues haven't changed it yet. Many youth leagues print their rule books and send them out well before MLB has their rule meetings and its the same as last year. YMMV.

[flastyle727]

Balks, eh. I hate them, ruins the flow of the game, and takes away Force Outs....I love Force Outs.

 

Have to call them when they happen though.....

[NWA_UMP]

 

Balks are only dead balls in NFHS rules..........in OBR the ball stays live...............what would cause you to kill the play?

 

Sometimes the ball stays live, if a no-stop balk is followed by a pitch, or a knee-pop balk is followed by a wild throw to 1B.

 

As Matt points out, the ball remains live only through the initial act. Once the feint to 3B is complete, so is the initial act. Kill it and enforce the balk.

 

I am with Stan on this...I see no reason to kill the play as action on this type of play is ongoing. Just like a pitch that is delivered to the plate after a balk...let's see what happens and enforce the balk if required. This is not Fed and balks are live until they are dead. 

 

A technique we use when we have a balk is to yell. Not just point and call it...yell it to the point that we scare him so he stops. It works and can eliminate a couple of headaches.

[maven]

I am with Stan on this...I see no reason to kill the play as action on this type of play is ongoing. Just like a pitch that is delivered to the plate after a balk...let's see what happens and enforce the balk if required. This is not Fed and balks are live until they are dead.

That's not correct procedure (though in some sense it's true that the ball is live until it is dead). The ball remains live until the initial act ends, whether that's a pitch, a throw to a base, or a feint.

 

Consider: R1, F1 balks and throws to F3, and the defense gets R1 in a rundown. During the rundown, F6 throws the ball into the dugout. Are you awarding R1 3B on the overthrow?

 

Correct procedure for this play: the initial act ends once F3 gloves the ball and we know F1's throw will not be wild. Kill it and enforce the balk. The rundown should never happen.

 

In the OP, the initial act ends once the feint is complete. Kill it and enforce the balk.

[JDavis225]

OBR.  Runners on 1st and 3rd with a RHP who does the feint to third.  You call "that's a balk," and then he pivots and throws wildly to first (basically your standard 5-3 pickoff move).  R3 scores and R1 goes all the way to third.  Should this be allowed to stay live or should it be killed when he feinted to third?  I know you generally look for a pause or completion of the play before you call it dead, but thought I would check on this new scenario.  

 Verbalize "That's a balk," if he turns and throws wildly to first then allow the play to continue. The balk should only be enforced once it's clear that all runners will not advance at least one base.  I attended PBUC this year and that's what we were taught although the 3rd to 1st rule had not been put in place yet. 

[johnnyg08]

Kill it once the feint is completed. The ball is only kept alive on the initial act. MLBUM 7.9(1).

 

This is correct.  

[johnnyg08]

if he turns and throws wildly to first then allow the play to continue

 

 

Unless PBUC is different from MLB, you may have misunderstood what they were teaching you.

Once the feint is complete, you enforce the balk.

[noumpere]

I agree with johnnyg here.  The feint and then the throw are two separate moves.  The balk happens on the first move.  The second move "never happens".

 

Now if the pitcher somehow balks while he is throwing to first (e.g. no step which I had just the other night) (and Im obviously assuming no feint to third as part of this) and then throws wild, then you keep it live.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

OBR.  Runners on 1st and 3rd with a RHP who does the feint to third.  You call "that's a balk," and then he pivots and throws wildly to first (basically your standard 5-3 pickoff move).  R3 scores and R1 goes all the way to third.  Should this be allowed to stay live or should it be killed when he feinted to third?  I know you generally look for a pause or completion of the play before you call it dead, but thought I would check on this new scenario.  

 Verbalize "That's a balk," if he turns and throws wildly to first then allow the play to continue. The balk should only be enforced once it's clear that all runners will not advance at least one base.  I attended PBUC this year and that's what we were taught although the 3rd to 1st rule had not been put in place yet. 

 

 

 

There is no first to third rule.  There is a can't feint to third rule from the pitcher's plate.  IMHO thinking of it as a 3r to 1st rule is going to cause more brain cramps than you want to think about. 

[BRUMP]

Now if the pitcher somehow balks while he is throwing to first (e.g. no step which I had just the other night) (and Im obviously assuming no feint to third as part of this) and then throws wild, then you keep it live.

 

except FED