Illegal high school slide

[Sayhey]

Friday night I had a base runner slide through the bag with no intent to break up two. The ball was hit to slowly to turn two. The pivot man gave up the idea of throwing to 1st base. The runner made no contact and he did not alter play
The pivot man was at the side of the bag and the runner slid straight through the bag. The coach wanted a second out on retired runner interference with intent to break up two. This is a high school game. The visiting coach was adament that I call the rule by the letter of the law. I refused. He plead his case to the plate umpire to no avail. I do not want to call a bull$h1t technical illegal slide rule. The defense did not deser e 2 outs in my opinion. Am I a rebel without a clue? Have you done the same. The Fed. rule book was written by "educators", not umpires. I thought it was weak and pathetic for a coach to beg for an out on this scenario. What do you think?maybe this thread will evolve into a productive discussion on slides and coaches arguements.

[maven]

Nothing wrong with the rule. The illegal slide constitutes a FPSR violation only when there is illegal contact or it alters the play. FED 8-4-2b

 

Sounds as if you WERE calling it by the letter of the law.

[maineump]

With no attemp to turn two - runner slid into the bag, or away from the defensive player, leg is down, he didn't pop-up into the fielder - no second out.

Granted the runner slid through the bag, but did it alter the play or make the fielder alter a throw? In OP, no it didn't. Play on.

My reaction is, the play is written for safety of the fielder, this was not compromised - so no call.

[UmpJM]

Sayhey,

 

You did, in fact, "...call the rule by the letter of the law...".

 

Since the runner neither made contact nor altered the play, there was no violation.

 

JM

[Dannytheman]

UmpJM is absolutely right!  You were all over this!!

[alex7]

Friday night I had a base runner slide through the bag with no intent to break up two. The ball was hit to slowly to turn two. The pivot man gave up the idea of throwing to 1st base. The runner made no contact and he did not alter play

The pivot man was at the side of the bag and the runner slid straight through the bag. The coach wanted a second out on retired runner interference with intent to break up two. This is a high school game. The visiting coach was adament that I call the rule by the letter of the law. I refused. He plead his case to the plate umpire to no avail. I do not want to call a bullSH*# technical illegal slide rule. The defense did not deser e 2 outs in my opinion. Am I a rebel without a clue? Have you done the same. The Fed. rule book was written by "educators", not umpires. I thought it was weak and pathetic for a coach to beg for an out on this scenario. What do you think?maybe this thread will evolve into a productive discussion on slides and coaches arguements.

 

As mentioned, you actually called the rule as written.  There is no "b.s. technical illegal slide rule" written by clueless educators.  Too much anger in that post, my friend, on this beautiful Sunday afternoon. 

[JaxRolo]

Sayhey ,

Sounds like you made the correct call but don't really know the rule that well.

Study the rule and learn from what you are being told here.

[sdix00]

This might help break down the rule and may spark some questions and/or corrections. Either way, it should help to understand the rule.


1. On any play:
1a. A runner must not interfere with a fielder making a play, and
1b. IF a runner slides, it must be a legal slide (as defined in 2-32), and
1c. IF a runner slides illegally, but does not alter the play, then there is no interference, and
1d. A runner is never required to slide, and
1e. Other runners return to TOI


2. On a force play:
2a. 1a-d still applies, and
2b. A new requirement is added to a legal slide: a sliding runner must slide on a direct line between the bases (or away from the play), and
2c. A runner who does not slide, but interferes, can still violate the FPSR, and
2d. Interference will result in an automatic double play (+BR), and

2e. Other runners return to TOP

[Sayhey]

Thanks for the input. Good stuff. This coach thought that even though there was no contact and the runner did not alter the flow of play that the runner should be called out. He thinks that a runner who breaks the plane of the back edge of the bag(2nd base) is automatically out. No questions asked.

I did not spend much time in the Fed. Rule book this year. I thought maybe I missed something or a new slide rule was in effect because this head coach was jumping around like a rooster and very animated. I just let him go off for 15 seconds and he ran out of material. He kept repeating himself,"he slid past the bag". He asked me,"did he slide past the bag"? I replied,"yes".

" why won't you call interference ." My reply,"the slide did not alter play."

He did not like my comment and was adament that I call interference.

In my N.A.I.A. games the runner can slide through the bag and make contact as long as the slide itself is legal and in a straight line with the bag.

I apologize. Too much anger on a sunny Sunday. I get frustrated with High school coaches and the Fed. rule writers. Gotta get back to Sunday night baseball. Enjoy

[mstaylor]

Why the rule writers? They put a rule in to protect the middle infielders, actually NCAA had it first. I don't see the problem, but it is a good discussion.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[Sayhey]

I am new on here and should listen more and talk less. My negative feelings about Fed. Rules does not need to be an issue here. My apologies. The safety slide rule is a good concept for high school and it is not my intention to speak against it. I thought the Feds had put in a new rule and I missed the memo. Probably an indication of coach ignorance and me only working a few games so far this season. The head coach of the #1 high school in a city of 100,000 was having a tantrum at second base. He wanted retired runner interference and the batter-runner called out for a double play. He never said there was contact because there was not. He never said play was altered or his fielder was hindered. He just kept hammering his point that R-1 slid past the imaginary plane on the backside of 2nd base.

When I told him play was not altered the coach began to mock me. He considered my statement to be ridiculous. I am working out of my area with coaches I do not know. This creates some challenges. I thought maybe it was a local rule.

Maybe it has become a rule by the way local umpires are interpreting the rule and enforcing it.

[sdix00]

Exploring this rule and other complicated rules on this forum will really help when a coach comes out on the broomstick. 

[dumbdumb]

I am new on here and should listen more and talk less. My negative feelings about Fed. Rules does not need to be an issue here. My apologies. The safety slide rule is a good concept for high school and it is not my intention to speak against it. I thought the Feds had put in a new rule and I missed the memo. Probably an indication of coach ignorance and me only working a few games so far this season. The head coach of the #1 high school in a city of 100,000 was having a tantrum at second base. He wanted retired runner interference and the batter-runner called out for a double play. He never said there was contact because there was not. He never said play was altered or his fielder was hindered. He just kept hammering his point that R-1 slid past the imaginary plane on the backside of 2nd base.

When I told him play was not altered the coach began to mock me. He considered my statement to be ridiculous. I am working out of my area with coaches I do not know. This creates some challenges. I thought maybe it was a local rule.

Maybe it has become a rule by the way local umpires are interpreting the rule and enforcing it.

Guess you will never work any of his games again.

 

Very good chance this dirt-bag knows the rules and is intentionally leaving out the part about "alters the play" because he knows he would then have nothing to argue about. Wonder how many he talks into calling this same type of slide that is illegal as noted by both coach and umpire but "does not alter" the play, a double play??? He may even have his players "eat the throw" when he and they know they have no chance, and just sit there and look for anything the runner does that is illegal, and then jump at the chance to go argue the play his way. Probably argues about "alters the play" if it is called against him with his runners running. Probably says the 2B was way out of the way and his runner did not alter when it is called against him.

 

Typical "do you know who I am coach" and it only takes 1 call from me and you will never work here again, or in the playoffs coach. Good luck.

 

Sounds like NF wrote the rule and added (making it a very well written rule now)  "altars the play" guidance with this type of coach in mind (wanting a chicken poop out with the letter of the law) and also gives in writing the chance for the umpire to use judgment and not have to make a chicken poop call when unnecessary.

[maven]

Game management is often the most challenging part of officiating and always what distinguishes the best officials.

 

Here's something you might consider trying: a lot of folks will tell you to let the coach have his say first. Lead with, "Coach, what did you see?" This is good advice, and allows you time to focus your response and replay what happened in your mind.

 

When the coach stops or begins to repeat himself, it's your turn. Here's something that works for me: start your turn with something the coach got RIGHT. In your case, I might have said, "Coach, you're absolutely right, that slide was illegal. However, by rule that illegal slide is a FPSR violation only when it creates illegal contact or alters the play. In my judgment, we did not have either of those here, so the BR stays on 1B."

 

What's left to discuss? You politely listened to and agreed with what he saw. You nailed the rule. You clearly and respectfully articulated your judgment. The conversation is over, and coach gets to decide whether he's around when we play on.

[johnnyg08]

 

When I told him play was not altered the coach began to mock me.  

 

And then he walked to the parking lot because I ejected him. 

[noumpere]

Just an fyi since I don't see that its been posted but the rule is 2.32.2c "the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder"

 

The "then" part is important.

 

my guess is that the coach knew the rule and was just fishing.

[catsbackr]

My question is, why didn't you eject him for being demonstrative and/or for mocking you.  Or, at the very least, warn him.

[Sayhey]

Maybe this slide rule discussion will morph into a game management discussion. Thanks for all of the useful strategies and insights. I appreciate all who have responded. Maybe you have been where I was Friday night. Working out of your area. Partner you do not know. Never worked the ballpark before. Only seen the #1 team in town once before. Trying to make a good impression.

Do not want to be known as a red ass. Do not want to be known as someone that can be walked on. While it is rather simple to write about clearly defined ejection points or lines in the sand it is not nearly as easy to identify those crossings of the line and act in the moment of the game. This coach argued in a peculiar way. He ran out on the field to second base and did this quick little act. Like an actor in a play. He did get a little demonstrative but he never got personal really. Then as quick as it started it was over and he ran off over to the U.I.C. and the U.I.C. was not taking the bait so he ran back to his dugout. You had to be there really. I am not afraid to eject coaches.

I will say that ejections are hardly ever a simple matter. They include reports and for me often criticism of the ejection. I have had my own partner disagree with an ejection. He put me in the position of calling a check swing and then when it lead to an ejection he criticizes the ejection to my assignor. Well, either it was a good ejection or it was not. It definitely was. 3 warnings for arguing balls and strikes and now you gotta go

So, I thought I did a good job. I did not take it personal. I stayed calm and said very little. I answered his question with one word. I usually say to much. I stated the rule which answered his question about why did this not go my way.

I did not have to ask," what did you see." He told me what he saw and I agreed with him about what he saw.

[grayhawk]

Just an fyi since I don't see that its been posted but the rule is 2.32.2c "the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder"

 

The "then" part is important.

 

my guess is that the coach knew the rule and was just fishing.

 

Thank you noumpere - you beat me to it.  This is THE relevant part of this discussion.  The slide was 100% legal.  Sliding past the bag is nothing unless it THEN makes contact or alters the play.  Since the fielder was to the side, the runner can slide past the bag and it's nothing every day of the week.  If a fielder is ON the bag and the runner slides past the back edge, it's STILL nothing as long as the rest of the slide is legal (not MC, foot below the knee, not a cross body block, etc.)  The coach was flat out wrong on his understanding of this part of the FPSR rule.  Saying the play was not altered was not the correct way to explain your call.  If it was me, the explanation would have been "Coach, it was a legal slide."  If he persists about the back edge of the bag stuff, then perhaps a further explanation of "Runners can slide past the back edge as long as they then don't make contact or alter the play.  Since that didn't happen, it was 100% legal.  Let's play ball."

[BuckeyeMike]

I had an incredibly similiar situation last year.  The main difference was the runner went into 2nd standing up.  F5 made absolutely no attempt to throw to 1st, since it was a slow roller and he barely got the guy at 2nd. 

 

Same thing though....the coach comes out arguing that it's a safety rule that was violated and that it didn't matter if the F5 made an attempt or not. 

 

Long story short, I ended up dumping the coach b/c he wouldn't let it go.  Oh, and he kicked dirt of my freshly cleaned plate.  lol

[noumpere]

 

Long story short, I ended up dumping the coach b/c he wouldn't let it go.  Oh, and he kicked dirt of my freshly cleaned plate.  lol

Leave it there and call the next pitch or 4 a ball.

[coachump4]

Had this play this past Saturday in a middle school with one exception the runner took both feet of the shortstop out from under him as he was attempting to turn a double play.  The coach went crazy the fans went crazy when I ruled it a DP.  Heard it all the way out to the vehicle only because people don't know the rules.

[UmpJM]

coachump,

 

Where was the fielder when the runner slid into him?

 

JM

[coachump4]

just touched 2nd on shortstop side and was trying to throw when he got face planted

[UmpJM]

In that case, Good call, Blue!

 

JM