What's the call?

[JaxRolo]

Yep I was wrong. (Don't get to say that very often)

I had it right before then got confusado!

[UmpTTS43]

UmpTT,

I'm familiar with the "order of appeals" interp, and, I believe it applies to all three codes.

However, in the OP, there was only one appeal - so there is no "order" to be considered.

I believe the following text from the NCAA 8-5-j Ex. says that the principle for NCAA is the same as for OBR. If the runner is forced to the base he misses at the moment he misses it, a subsequent successful appeal is treated as a force out, even if a following runner was subsequently put out during live action.

Exception—No runner can be forced out if a runner who follows in the

batting order is put out first. However, if a runner is put out during live

action, it does not remove the force on any runners who might subsequently

be declared out for a running infraction.

JM

That exception along with the note from Paronto is what makes the issue confusing. If the NCAA wants the force removed when a following runner is put out on appeal, why would they allow the status of the runner at the time of a miss to be considered during live action? This order of appeals issue is what differs from OBR. When appealing a miss in OBR, the status of the runner is always taken into consideration. NCAA muddies this with the clarification. To be honest, don't know how FED rules on this. Figured they would make it as difficult as possible in order to "simplify" it.

[johnnyg08]

I will repost Carl's stuff from the BRD

[johnnyg08]

From the 2013 BRD:

[UmpJM]

...

That exception along with the note from Paronto is what makes the issue confusing. If the NCAA wants the force removed when a following runner is put out on appeal, why would they allow the status of the runner at the time of a miss to be considered during live action? This order of appeals issue is what differs from OBR. When appealing a miss in OBR, the status of the runner is always taken into consideration. NCAA muddies this with the clarification. To be honest, don't know how FED rules on this. Figured they would make it as difficult as possible in order to "simplify" it.

UmpTT,

I wholeheartedly agree.

The relaxed action "order of appeals" stipulation is logically inconsistent with the principle of "forced at the time of the miss" on appeal.

JM

[UmpTTS43]

Paronto says the change was made in order to conform to other rule sets (OBR) but with his example in the conference notes, this goes entirely against what is accepted for OBR. Granted, with one out and multiple appeals, it is necessary to appeal in the correct order in order to record the beneficial third out. If there are two outs and multiple appeals are made, you enforce the one that benefits the defense.

[Jocko]

From BRD, 2011 but still in 2013 as play 20-14 (I think)

" Play 19-14. FED Only. R1, 2 outs. R1 steals. B1 hits for extra bases, misses second, and heads for third. the ball comes in and just before R1 touches the plate, the second baseman tags second and appeals that B1 missed the base.

Ruling: The "live ball" appeal of a force base for a third out cancels the run."

Does anyone else see a problem here?

[grayhawk]

From BRD, 2011 but still in 2013 as play 20-14 (I think)

" Play 19-14. FED Only. R1, 2 outs. R1 steals. B1 hits for extra bases, misses second, and heads for third. the ball comes in and just before R1 touches the plate, the second baseman tags second and appeals that B1 missed the base.

Ruling: The "live ball" appeal of a force base for a third out cancels the run."

Does anyone else see a problem here?

It wasn't a force.

[Jimurray]

From BRD, 2011 but still in 2013 as play 20-14 (I think)

" Play 19-14. FED Only. R1, 2 outs. R1 steals. B1 hits for extra bases, misses second, and heads for third. the ball comes in and just before R1 touches the plate, the second baseman tags second and appeals that B1 missed the base.

Ruling: The "live ball" appeal of a force base for a third out cancels the run."

Does anyone else see a problem here?

It wasn't a force.

Very confusing - that play is 19-14 in my BRD and appears to be a valid time play if it was the third out which they don't specify until the explanation. But the added note states that that play is not possible in OBR and NCAA.

I don't know why it wouldn't be possible in OBR. In NCAA there is a confusing AR from 8-1-- a

"PENALTY—For failure to touch a base advancing or returning: The runner is out if touched by the ball in the hands of a fielder before returning to each untouched base. If the base missed was one to which the runner was forced, the runner is out when tagged or if the ball is held by a fielder on any base the runner failed to touch (including home plate) (see 8-6-a-[4])."

So, the ball has to go to the non forced runner in NCAA? 8-6 doesn't have this.

There might be some live action or relaxed / unrelated principle I'm not getting.

Sent from my iPad

[umpschool]

From BRD, 2011 but still in 2013 as play 20-14 (I think)

" Play 19-14. FED Only. R1, 2 outs. R1 steals. B1 hits for extra bases, misses second, and heads for third. the ball comes in and just before R1 touches the plate, the second baseman tags second and appeals that B1 missed the base.

Ruling: The "live ball" appeal of a force base for a third out cancels the run."

Does anyone else see a problem here?

In professional baseball, this would be a time play. If the appeal is sustained prior to the run crossing the plate, the run does not score. Appeals may be made anytime the ball is live, and whether play is "relaxed or unrelaxed." Though we do not use that term, there is only one instance where an appeal cannot be made on a returning runner, and that is at home plate. If a runner has passed and missed home plate, remains in the immediate vicinity, and is returning immediately, he must be tagged. At any other base, if the fielder makes an unmistakable act of appeal, the base may be tagged. The reason is this only applies at home plate is because the difference in time between an appeal or a tag on a runner at home does not matter. He cannot make a time play for himself.

[Jocko]

From BRD, 2011 but still in 2013 as play 20-14 (I think)

" Play 19-14. FED Only. R1, 2 outs. R1 steals. B1 hits for extra bases, misses second, and heads for third. the ball comes in and just before R1 touches the plate, the second baseman tags second and appeals that B1 missed the base.

Ruling: The "live ball" appeal of a force base for a third out cancels the run."

Does anyone else see a problem here?

In professional baseball, this would be a time play. If the appeal is sustained prior to the run crossing the plate, the run does not score

I believe this to be the case in all rule sets. Fed didn't differentiate in this instance. Quite simply, BRD is wrong.

[noumpere]

I believe this to be the case in all rule sets. Fed didn't differentiate in this instance. Quite simply, BRD is wrong.

I agree that something is wrong with the BRD play either the runners were wrong ro the word 'force' is wrong etc.

while Carl is very very good on the rules its nearly impossible to put together something that big without a typo or two, or mis-understanding some situation etc. so it should always be read with a critical eye.

After reading para. 4a I am confused how they rule in para. 5 but it looks like NCAA does care about the order of appeals of forced runners. I don't think I've seen this difference in the BRD.

Off to peruse the FED stuff on this.

The difference is in the type of the play. If the play becomes relaxed then the defense has time to choose which appeal to make first so they are held to the standard of making them in the right order. But if play is not relaxed you cant ecpect them to try to make an appeal and then make a live action play on a runner. So let them play on the runner first and then make the appeal and rule on the appeal as of the time of the baserunning error.

[mstaylor]

I suspect it should have said R1 missed second not B1.

[Jimurray]

I suspect it should have said R1 missed second not B1.

If so why would that play not apply in OBR, NCAA?

[mstaylor]

Good question. Not having a current copy I can't read what else is around it. He probably was going for the NCAA difference of doing the appeals in the right order and the wrong play was put in place.

[johnnyg08]

I posted a segment from the 2013 BRD earlier in this thread...what other section would you like me to post?

[mstaylor]

Just look at the section and see if there is a logical progression that this is out of place

[grayhawk]

I suspect it should have said R1 missed second not B1.

That would actually make even less sense. If they successfully appeal that R1 missed second, then his run won't score in any case, no matter how many outs there were, or whether it was a force or not. Remember that it was R1's run that is being considered.

[Jocko]

No matter how you slice it, it's wrong in every respect. Including the "Fed Only"

[umpireplb]

"R1 and R3, 1 out. Batter hits single to RF. R3 scores. R1 advances to 3B but misses 2B. F8 throws the batter out at first base for the 2nd out. The defense properly appeals that R1 missed 2B. Does the run score?"

The run does not score. No ifs, ands, or buts. This is not a time play, it is a force play. Rule 4.09: When the third out of any [half]inning is the result of a force play, no run can score on the play. The runner on first was forced to second by reason of the batter's base hit. The appeal, assuming it is upheld and the runner ruled out for missing second base, constitutes the third out of the half inning. Since the runner is being called out for missing a base to which he is forced and his out is the third out of the half inning, no runs may score on the play.

The exact wording of Rule 4.09 (a): "A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made... (2) by any runner being forced out.

APPROVED RULING: Two out, Jones on second, Smith on first and batter, Brown, hits home run inside the park. All three runs cross the plate. But Jones missed third base, and on appeal is declared out. Three outs. Smith’s and Brown’s runs are voided. No score on the play. [This casebook example applies to the play under discussion here, where a runner on first is forced to advance, misses the base to which he is forced, and is called out on appeal.]

Here is a general statement that covers:

When a runner misses a base and a fielder holds the ball on a missed base, or on the base originally occupied by the runner if a fly ball is caught, and appeals for the umpire’s decision, the runner is out when the umpire sustains the appeal; all runners may score if possible, except that with

two out the runner is out at the moment he misses the bag, if an appeal is sustained as applied to the following runners."

No run can score on this play. The third out of the half inning was the result of a force play; that makes it simple!

Official_Baseball_Rules.pdf

[Richvee]

umpireplb- Did you read the thread at all? The crux of the discussion is "F8 throws batter out at first". This negates the force if R1 has not reached 2nd base when BR is thrown out.

[Haid D' Salaami]

umpireplb- Did you read the thread at all? The crux of the discussion is "F8 throws batter out at first". This negates the force if R1 has not reached 2nd base when BR is thrown out.

but it doesn't change the the status of R1.. he was still forced and by rule with the appeal, he can be called out, and since it was a force no runs score.

[grayhawk]

umpireplb- Did you read the thread at all? The crux of the discussion is "F8 throws batter out at first". This negates the force if R1 has not reached 2nd base when BR is thrown out.

but it doesn't change the the status of R1.. he was still forced and by rule with the appeal, he can be called out, and since it was a force no runs score.

Wendelstedt disagrees with you. Please read the thread.

[Richvee]

100 posts into this thread and we're back where we started. :smachhead:

[Jocko]

umpireplb- Did you read the thread at all? The crux of the discussion is "F8 throws batter out at first". This negates the force if R1 has not reached 2nd base when BR is thrown out.

but it doesn't change the the status of R1.. he was still forced and by rule with the appeal, he can be called out, and since it was a force no runs score.

relative to R1s proximity to 2B when the out was made. Said another way, if R1 would have to be tagged to be out because BR was out before R1 reached/acquired/passed 2B, then the appeal is not a force and the run may or may not score. We've come full circle :D