What's the call?

[JaxRolo]

This was asked on another site and they can't seem to agree on the answer so I will ask it here where the real experts are!

R1 and R3, 1 out. Batter hits single to RF. R3 scores. R1 advances to 3B but misses 2B. F8 throws the batter out at first base for the 2nd out. The defense properly appeals that R1 missed 2B. Does the run score?

[Stretch]

Run scores as long as R3 touched home prior to the appeal. BR being out at first removes the force play on R1.

[Dannytheman]

I need further clarification. Does F8 get the batter/runner at first as a force out or did BR already tag first and was out after on a tag?

This could be the poof play if BR was out at first on force with throw from F8.

So if F8 throws out BR at first on force, and appeal is good, I have 2 outs and run goes Poof, end of inning.

If F8 throws to first base and BR has already tagged 1st and he get's caught with tag off base, It's run scored and end of inning.

IMHO.

[grayhawk]

Jax, you didn't like my answers on the other site?

Danny, let's assume that BR was put out before he reached first. Does the position of R1 at the time of BR's putout matter?

[Dannytheman]

Jax, you didn't like my answers on the other site?

Danny, let's assume that BR was put out before he reached first. Does the position of R1 at the time of BR's putout matter?

Yes it does.

If the BR was out before getting to first, it is the POOF play. 2 outs and run comes off the board. That's my call.

[JaxRolo]

Jax, you didn't like my answers on the other site?

Danny, let's assume that BR was put out before he reached first. Does the position of R1 at the time of BR's putout matter?

Actually yes I liked your response

[grayhawk]

Jax, you didn't like my answers on the other site?

Danny, let's assume that BR was put out before he reached first. Does the position of R1 at the time of BR's putout matter?

Yes it does.

If the BR was out before getting to first, it is the POOF play. 2 outs and run comes off the board. That's my call.

You misunderstood. I am asking about R1's position (in relation to second base) at the time of BR's out.

[noumpere]

Jax, you didn't like my answers on the other site?

Danny, let's assume that BR was put out before he reached first. Does the position of R1 at the time of BR's putout matter?

Yes it does.

If the BR was out before getting to first, it is the POOF play. 2 outs and run comes off the board. That's my call.

What's the POOF play? because I've only heard that term in reference to LL rules and a runner leaving a base early (before the ball reached the plate or whatever the specific rule is). that doesn't apply here.

On the question above -- I think it depends on the rules and the position of R1 when the out was made on BR. Most of the time though R1 would of passed second first, so the out will be a force out (or at least treated like one) and no run will score.

[johnnyg08]

time play count the run...as the op is written, once the batter/runner is retired all force outs are removed as it applies to this situation.

[BRUMP]

Agree with Johnny. It's a time play.

[AZump78]

As an aside, in situations like this (1st/3rd with 1 out), you will see a lot of upper level guys signal time play to each other.

Great awareness, and just another one of those little things that can help you stand as one of the best.

[grayhawk]

Read what Harry has to say - does this change anyone's answer?

WUM Page 215. Harry's Hints:

If a runner is called out on appeal for missing a base that he was forced to advance to at the time the base was missed, this out will always be a force out, regardless of the order in which runners were appealed.

When an umpire must make a determination of whether runs should be allowed to score on a play where the third out (or apparent fourth out) is made on appeal for a runner missing a base, they should ask themselves the question, "At the time the base was missed, was the runner forced to touch it?" If the answer is "yes," the appeal is on a force out, regardless of whether following runners were put out before the appeal.

[Dannytheman]

Very nice and educational! So where he is unimportant.

Great lesson here.

[ScubaUmp]

this is a timing play. but has nothing to do with op as written. no run scores. third out delcared from a proper defensive appeal results in a force out and negates the run

[spiritump]

put out of BR at first takes force off on runner at first--this is a time play run counts

[grayhawk]

this is a timing play. but has nothing to do with op as written. no run scores. third out delcared from a proper defensive appeal results in a force out and negates the run

You contradict yourself in this post. Force outs are not time plays.

[johnnyg08]

this is a timing play. but has nothing to do with op as written. no run scores. third out delcared from a proper defensive appeal results in a force out and negates the run

If that's what you want to think then fine, but then it is not a time play. the run would not could as a result of the 3rd out being a force out.

[johnnyg08]

Read what Harry has to say - does this change anyone's answer?

WUM Page 215. Harry's Hints:

If a runner is called out on appeal for missing a base that he was forced to advance to at the time the base was missed, this out will always be a force out, regardless of the order in which runners were appealed.

When an umpire must make a determination of whether runs should be allowed to score on a play where the third out (or apparent fourth out) is made on appeal for a runner missing a base, they should ask themselves the question, "At the time the base was missed, was the runner forced to touch it?" If the answer is "yes," the appeal is on a force out, regardless of whether following runners were put out before the appeal.

From the 2013 BRD:

[johnnyg08]

OBR:

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that frequently the “force†situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second, and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no run would score.

Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

[ScubaUmp]

Source 2012 NFHS FHSAA combined case book Page 70

RULE 9 SCORING-RECORD KEEPING

exception d. when the third out is declared during a play resulting from a valid defensive appeal, which results in a force out. This out takes precedence if enforcement of it would negate a score, or

c. when there is more than on out declared by the umpire which terminates the half inning, the defensive team may select the out which is to its advantage as in 2-20-2. Credit the putout to the nearest designated baseman.

I'm going back to reading Carl's 151 ways to ruin a game. Downloaded it to the kindle last night from amazon. $8.99 Highly reccomend. Handeling this op wrong would qualify.. Oh ya, one set of rules please.

[grayhawk]

Read what Harry has to say - does this change anyone's answer?

WUM Page 215. Harry's Hints:

If a runner is called out on appeal for missing a base that he was forced to advance to at the time the base was missed, this out will always be a force out, regardless of the order in which runners were appealed.

When an umpire must make a determination of whether runs should be allowed to score on a play where the third out (or apparent fourth out) is made on appeal for a runner missing a base, they should ask themselves the question, "At the time the base was missed, was the runner forced to touch it?" If the answer is "yes," the appeal is on a force out, regardless of whether following runners were put out before the appeal.

From the 2013 BRD:

Johnny, keep in mind that this only matters when one out is a force and one is not. If both outs are forces, then the order that the defense appeals is not relevant. Example:

R1, R3, one out. B4 doubles to right. R2 scores, R1 goes to third, missing second on the way. BR misses first on the way to second. If the defense properly appeals both misses, it doesn't matter the order in which they appeal. In other words, the appeal of BR missing first does not remove the force on R1, and the appeal of R1 missing second would still be a force and no runs would score.

On the OP - the question cannot be answered because we don't know where R1 was at the time BR was thrown out at first. If R1 had not yet reached second (unlikely), then the force is removed and the appeal would be a time play. If R1 had reached second (more likely) when BR was thrown out at first, then the appeal results in a force and no runs may score.

[UmpTTS43]

The Wendelstedt reference that has come up refers to multiple appeals where a following runner is called out on appeal and then a subsequent appeal is made on a preceding runner. If a following runner is put out during live action, this removes the force on preceding runners.

In the OP, since BR was retired at 1st, the force was removed on R1. If an appeal is subsequently made on R1 for the missed base, preceding runners would score.

[ScubaUmp]

Ok. The situation 1st & 3rd 1 out represents a timing play. I need to remember,type what I mean not mean what type. That being said, applying FED, the way I read it, and I may be wrong.....human. I'm looking to the experts of this board to clarify, not only for my edification but for those that read and don't post. That's what this board is about. Better to make the mistakes here, than on the field. That could get you fired.

[UmpJM]

If the R1 had not yet reached 2B at the time the BR was retired, score the run.

If the R1 had already passed 2B at the time the BR was retired, the appeal of his miss is a force out and the run is negated.

JM

[AZump78]

If Fittske is the Gear Pimp, does that make UmpJM the Rulemaster?

The man knows all.