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What's the call?

JaxRolo

By JaxRolo
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Birdieseeker

Birdieseeker

Posted
Posted

, BR out before runner reaches 2nd, score the run. If after runner passes 2nd, no run upon proper appeal.

Did I miss something here? Shouldn't it be reversed?

Sorry guys I got caught up typing and screwed it up. Thanks for the correction

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grayhawk
grayhawk

Read what Harry has to say - does this change anyone's answer? WUM Page 215. Harry's Hints: If a runner is called out on appeal for missing a base that he was forced to advance to at the time th

UmpJM
UmpJM

If the R1 had not yet reached 2B at the time the BR was retired, score the run. If the R1 had already passed 2B at the time the BR was retired, the appeal of his miss is a force out and the run is

johnnyg08
johnnyg08

Man, I couldn't agree more. One lesson that I learned early in my career, when you're getting trained by guys who work much higher levels than you...4 letters, STFU.

Birdieseeker

Birdieseeker

Posted
Posted

I'm so glad you guys brought up the mechanic in this situation. While reading the thread I was going over it in my head. As the BU in the OP I'm in the B, my responsibilities as I understand it are to check for INT/OB between runner and fielder, take the runner into 2nd then release him and get the touch at first. Here's where I started to think it might get sticky, say it's a rocket to the right of the base runner and to the left of F4. The runner stops to let the ball clear him. All is clean and green so far. However this delays the base runner's progression to 2nd. F9 charges the ball and you have a banger at 1st with the BR. Here's my thinking, I'm letting the throw take me to the play at first. I have to get that right so I may not see the touch at 2nd. I agree with most here on the rule application, BR out before runner reaches 2nd, score the run. If after runner passes 2nd, no run upon proper appeal. My question is...is my thinking correct? Mechanics wise do I sacrifice the touch at 2nd to get a proper angle on the banger at 1st? As for the PU, I'm not sure how much help I'm going to get from him. He's watching for the touch at the plate while working his way up the 3rd BL for a possible play there. Of course I agree in getting together to try and get the call right and maybe he did happen to see a miss at 2nd and bail my ass out but I can't rely on that. Is this just a hole in 2 man or is there something I can do to improve my look at everything going on?

Here's where you just have to umpire. 99.9999999999999% of the people at the ball park will be watching the ball and the play at 1B. Ball always has priority, R1's touch of 2B is your secondary responsibility. You get what you can get with the secondary responsibilities, but the ball is your primary responsibility.

Thanks for the confirmation Johnny. I figured that was the way to go with it. Hopefully 100% of the place is watching the ball lol

Jocko

Jocko

Posted
Posted

The only people NOT watching the ball are little Johnny R1s parents, and, if you have a quality coaching staff, a bench coach for DT.

UmpJM

UmpJM

Posted
Posted

...

The status of the runner at the time of the miss takes precedence.

This is true for OBR only.

UmpTT,

Why do you think it's true for OBR only?

I believe the same principle - viz., if the runner is forced at the time he misses, then a successful appeal of his miss is treated as a force out - applies in all 3 codes.

FED Case play 9.1.1H certainly suggests it applies in FED. I haven't checked my NCAA material yet, but I believe it applies there as well.

JM

  • Like 1
Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted

...

The status of the runner at the time of the miss takes precedence.

This is true for OBR only.

UmpTT,

Why do you think it's true for OBR only?

I believe the same principle - viz., if the runner is forced at the time he misses, then a successful appeal of his miss is treated as a force out - applies in all 3 codes.

FED Case play 9.1.1H certainly suggests it applies in FED. I haven't checked my NCAA material yet, but I believe it applies there as well.

JM

...

The status of the runner at the time of the miss takes precedence.

This is true for OBR only.

UmpTT,

Why do you think it's true for OBR only?

I believe the same principle - viz., if the runner is forced at the time he misses, then a successful appeal of his miss is treated as a force out - applies in all 3 codes.

FED Case play 9.1.1H certainly suggests it applies in FED. I haven't checked my NCAA material yet, but I believe it applies there as well.

JM

I'm just wondering, why this case play from FED is not a force without mention of where R2 was when the force was removed. Given that R2 ran home on the GB to short, I'd say there was a good chance he was past 3rd at the time of the putout @2nd.

9.1.1 SITUATION K:

With no outs and the bases loaded, B1 grounds into a 6-4-3 double play as R1 and R2 score. R2 misses third base and is declared out for the third out upon proper appeal.

RULING: R2's out is not a force out for the third out, therefore, R1 scores.

UmpTTS43

UmpTTS43

Posted
Posted

...

The status of the runner at the time of the miss takes precedence.

This is true for OBR only.

UmpTT,

Why do you think it's true for OBR only?

I believe the same principle - viz., if the runner is forced at the time he misses, then a successful appeal of his miss is treated as a force out - applies in all 3 codes.

FED Case play 9.1.1H certainly suggests it applies in FED. I haven't checked my NCAA material yet, but I believe it applies there as well.

JM

NCAA has stated that when a following runner is put out, it removes the force on all preceding runners, irregardless of their status when they missed the base. During multiple appeals it is imperative that they appeal in the correct order in order to invalidate runs.

Bases loaded. 1 out. Clean hit. R3R2 score. R1 misses 2nd and ends up at 3rd. BR misses 1st and ends up at 2nd. If they appeal the miss of the BR first, it removes the force on R1 and the subsequent appeal on R1 would result in a time play.

This interp was put out 2 years ago I believe.

johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

NCAA has stated that when a following runner is put out, it removes the force on all preceding runners, irregardless of their status when they missed the base. During multiple appeals it is imperative that they appeal in the correct order in order to invalidate runs.

Bases loaded. 1 out. Clean hit. R3R2 score. R1 misses 2nd and ends up at 3rd. BR misses 1st and ends up at 2nd. If they appeal the miss of the BR first, it removes the force on R1 and the subsequent appeal on R1 would result in a time play.

This interp was put out 2 years ago I believe.

I like this interpretation. IMO it makes the most sense...it puts something on the defense to know how to properly appeal to negate a run.

noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

...

The status of the runner at the time of the miss takes precedence.

This is true for OBR only.

UmpTT,

Why do you think it's true for OBR only?

I believe the same principle - viz., if the runner is forced at the time he misses, then a successful appeal of his miss is treated as a force out - applies in all 3 codes.

FED Case play 9.1.1H certainly suggests it applies in FED. I haven't checked my NCAA material yet, but I believe it applies there as well.

JM

NCAA has stated that when a following runner is put out, it removes the force on all preceding runners, irregardless of their status when they missed the base. During multiple appeals it is imperative that they appeal in the correct order in order to invalidate runs.

Bases loaded. 1 out. Clean hit. R3R2 score. R1 misses 2nd and ends up at 3rd. BR misses 1st and ends up at 2nd. If they appeal the miss of the BR first, it removes the force on R1 and the subsequent appeal on R1 would result in a time play.

This interp was put out 2 years ago I believe.

I think thats also true in other codes when there is "relaxed action appeals" (or any similar wording). The ruling might be (and is I believe) different when there is a "regular action" putout followed by an appeal on a preceeding runner that was forced.

UmpJM

UmpJM

Posted
Posted

UmpTT,

I'm familiar with the "order of appeals" interp, and, I believe it applies to all three codes.

However, in the OP, there was only one appeal - so there is no "order" to be considered.

I believe the following text from the NCAA 8-5-j Ex. says that the principle for NCAA is the same as for OBR. If the runner is forced to the base he misses at the moment he misses it, a subsequent successful appeal is treated as a force out, even if a following runner was subsequently put out during live action.

Exception—No runner can be forced out if a runner who follows in the

batting order is put out first. However, if a runner is put out during live

action, it does not remove the force on any runners who might subsequently

be declared out for a running infraction.

JM

Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted

UmpTT,

I'm familiar with the "order of appeals" interp, and, I believe it applies to all three codes.

However, in the OP, there was only one appeal - so there is no "order" to be considered.

I believe the following text from the NCAA 8-5-j Ex. says that the principle for NCAA is the same as for OBR. If the runner is forced to the base he misses at the moment he misses it, a subsequent successful appeal is treated as a force out, even if a following runner was subsequently put out during live action.

Exception—No runner can be forced out if a runner who follows in the

batting order is put out first. However, if a runner is put out during live

action, it does not remove the force on any runners who might subsequently

be declared out for a running infraction.

JM

Umfortunately, this comes from an NCAA Coordinator's Conference call March 1, 2011:

"4. Bases loaded, 1-out, batter hits a ball that barely clears the outfield fence. R1, hesitates between first and second bases to make sure the ball will not be caught. As he hesitates, the batter passes R1. The umpire correctly calls the batter out for passing R1 (second out). R1 then continues around the bases but misses second base and does not attempt to return to the base to touch it. After a new ball is put into play, the

defense then appeals R1’s missing of second base (third out). How many runs are scored?

a. Consider in NCAA, the force is removed when B/R passes R1. 8-5j, Exception, "No runner can be forced out if the runner who follows in the batting order is put out first." (unless the runner is put out during live action, it does not remove the force on any runners who might be subsequently declared out for a running infraction. An example is when a leading runner has been forced to advance at the time he misses a base, the appeal of the base is a "force out." NCAA: When the missed base was after the out made on the trailing runner, the force is removed and this play becomes a "time" play.

　

b. OBR/NFHS-the force is removed as soon as the B/R passes R1 regardless if the ball is "live" or "dead"

5. Play: Bases loaded, one out. The batter triples. R1 missed second and the batter-runner missed first. The defense successfully appeals against the batter-runner, then R1. The appeal out of the batter-runner removes the force against R1. R1’s appealed out (third out) is not a force out; R2 and R3’s runs count. If the defense had appealed R1's' missing second as the first appeal and then the batter-runner’s missing of first, no runs would have scored since the third out was for the batter-runner not attaining first base."

After reading para. 4a I am confused how they rule in para. 5 but it looks like NCAA does care about the order of appeals of forced runners. I don't think I've seen this difference in the BRD.

Off to peruse the FED stuff on this.

Haid D' Salaami

Haid D' Salaami

Posted
Posted

Jax, you didn't like my answers on the other site? :shrug:

Danny, let's assume that BR was put out before he reached first. Does the position of R1 at the time of BR's putout matter?

Yes it does.

If the BR was out before getting to first, it is the POOF play. 2 outs and run comes off the board. That's my call.

After going to Umpire school and PBUC, I thought i knew a few things... WTF is POOF?

  • Like 1
UmpJM

UmpJM

Posted
Posted

No the run does not score as this is a force.. R1 was forced to advance and touch 2nd, and when he did not, he can be called out.

Is this in reference to the OP??

uh yea...

HDS,

There is not enough information in the OP to determine whether or not the runner was "forced" at the time of his missing the base or if the force had been removed because a following runner had been retired prior to him reaching the base.

The only time I've ever heard of "POOF" is in relation to the LL "leaving early" rule where, under very specific circumstances, a violation causes a runner to be removed from the bases without an out being recorded.

JM

johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

No the run does not score as this is a force.. R1 was forced to advance and touch 2nd, and when he did not, he can be called out.

Is this in reference to the OP??

uh yea...

Just making sure. There are a few scenarios in this thread.

johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

No the run does not score as this is a force.. R1 was forced to advance and touch 2nd, and when he did not, he can be called out.

Is this in reference to the OP??

uh yea...

HDS,

There is not enough information in the OP to determine whether or not the runner was "forced" at the time of his missing the base or if the force had been removed because a following runner had been retired prior to him reaching the base.

The only time I've ever heard of "POOF" is in relation to the LL "leaving early" rule where, under very specific circumstances, a violation causes a runner to be removed from the bases without an out being recorded.

JM

I just want to make sure I have this right:

If R1 has not reached or passed 2B and is out upon proper appeal then it is a time play, count the run.

If R1 has reached or passed 2B, then is out upon proper appeal, no run b/c the 3rd out is a force out.

Is that right? (This is in reference to the OP)

grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

I just want to make sure I have this right:

If R1 has not reached or passed 2B and is out upon proper appeal then it is a time play, count the run.

If R1 has reached or passed 2B, then is out upon proper appeal, no run b/c the 3rd out is a force out.

Is that right? (This is in reference to the OP)

As the Fonz would say, "Correctamundo!"

JaxRolo

JaxRolo

Posted
  • Author
Posted

No the run does not score as this is a force.. R1 was forced to advance and touch 2nd, and when he did not, he can be called out.

Is this in reference to the OP??

HDS,

There is not enough information in the OP to determine whether or not the runner was "forced" at the time of his missing the base or if the force had been removed because a following runner had been retired prior to him reaching the base.

The only time I've ever heard of "POOF" is in relation to the LL "leaving early" rule where, under very specific circumstances, a violation causes a runner to be removed from the bases without an out being recorded.

JM

I just want to make sure I have this right:

If R1 has not reached or passed 2B and is out upon proper appeal then it is a time play, count the run.

If R1 has reached or passed 2B, then is out upon proper appeal, no run b/c the 3rd out is a force out.

Is that right? (This is in reference to the OP)

I think you got it backwards but I could be wrong. Won't be the first time.

Haid D' Salaami

Haid D' Salaami

Posted
Posted

No the run does not score as this is a force.. R1 was forced to advance and touch 2nd, and when he did not, he can be called out.

Is this in reference to the OP??

uh yea...

HDS,

There is not enough information in the OP to determine whether or not the runner was "forced" at the time of his missing the base or if the force had been removed because a following runner had been retired prior to him reaching the base.

The only time I've ever heard of "POOF" is in relation to the LL "leaving early" rule where, under very specific circumstances, a violation causes a runner to be removed from the bases without an out being recorded.

JM

So maybe i'm confused here.. R3 & R1 base hit ( where does R1 go ) he is forced to 2nd.. so therefore, this is a force play at 2nd no?

johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

I think you got it backwards but I could be wrong. Won't be the first time.

I think there are two parts...I didn't address one in my post...my two examples are also considering when B/R it put out at 1B AND R1's location as the exact time B/R is retired at 1B.

Haid D' Salaami

Haid D' Salaami

Posted
Posted

I just want to make sure I have this right:

If R1 has not reached or passed 2B and is out upon proper appeal then it is a time play, count the run.

If R1 has reached or passed 2B, then is out upon proper appeal, no run b/c the 3rd out is a force out.

Is that right? (This is in reference to the OP)

yes your right.. ti no became a force play cause numnuts missed 2nd...

  • Like 1
grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted

I think you got it backwards but I could be wrong. Won't be the first time.

He got it right. All you have to remember is, "At the exact moment the runner missed the base, was he forced to touch it?" If BR was thrown out before R1 reached second, then R1 was not forced at the moment he missed it. If, at the exact moment of R1's miss, BR had not yet been thrown out, then R1 was forced.

And Haid, you need to go back and read the whole thread to see why R1's position at the time BR was thrown out is critical info to answer the OP.

UmpJM

UmpJM

Posted
Posted

johnny,

I think you've got it right, but I'm not sure.

The important thing is the relative timing of the out on the BR and the runner missing the "forced to" base.

If the BR is retired BEFORE the runner misses the base, the force is "removed" and a subsequent appeal of his miss will NOT be treated as a force out.

If the BR is retired AFTER he misses the base, the force is "in effect" at the time of his miss and a subsequent appeal of his miss, therefore, WILL be treated as a force out, thereby nullifying any runs apparently scored on the play if the 3rd out.

JM

johnnyg08

johnnyg08

Posted
Posted

johnny,

I think you've got it right, but I'm not sure.

The important thing is the relative timing of the out on the BR and the runner missing the "forced to" base.

If the BR is retired BEFORE the runner misses the base, the force is "removed" and a subsequent appeal of his miss will NOT be treated as a force out.

If the BR is retired AFTER he misses the base, the force is "in effect" at the time of his miss and a subsequent appeal of his miss, therefore, WILL be treated as a force out, thereby nullifying any runs apparently scored on the play if the 3rd out.

JM

Yep, that's what I hoped that I had typed.

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