What's the call?

[Jocko]

If Fittske is the Gear Pimp, does that make UmpJM the Rulemaster?

The man knows all.

UmpJM -------- Jurisprudence Monarch

[johnnyg08]

It really isn't as tough as some are making it. Yes, there is enough information in the question to answer it correctly.

If thing 1 happens, then it is X

If thing 2 happens, then it is Y

Simple.

[grayhawk]

It really isn't as tough as some are making it. Yes, there is enough information in the question to answer it correctly.

If thing 1 happens, then it is X

If thing 2 happens, then it is Y

Simple.

That's true, which is why I answered it the way I did. However, there were many answers without qualifying the position of R1 at the time of BR's putout. Without that qualification, those answers are not complete.

[grayhawk]

The Wendelstedt reference that has come up refers to multiple appeals where a following runner is called out on appeal and then a subsequent appeal is made on a preceding runner. If a following runner is put out during live action, this removes the force on preceding runners.

In the OP, since BR was retired at 1st, the force was removed on R1. If an appeal is subsequently made on R1 for the missed base, preceding runners would score.

According to Wendelstedt, the above is not a correct understanding of the WUM interpretation. I emailed Wendelstedt and here is their response:

"I will check out the threads myself, however, the reason why a following runner is put out does not matter. The force is removed if, before reaching his forced base, a following runner is put out. You are correct in your ruling. If the runner had missed second before the BR was put out at first base, this is a force out appeal. If the missed base occurred after the BR was put out, the force would have been removed. Those who argue otherwise would be letting the team who made the mistake off the hook. Take, for instance, your same play. However, the BR is thrown out at second instead of at first. A following runner was still put out. It was still live action (I only use that because it was referenced. At Wendelstedt, we do not differentiate between what some refer to as "relaxed vs. unrelaxed," except in one instance at home plate.) If an appeal were made at second on R1, this would still be a force out since

when he missed the base, he was forced to touch it. Hope this clears it up. Please feel free to post this is response."

***

It doesn't matter if the following runner was put out during live action, or on appeal. The only thing that matters is whether or not a runner was forced to the base he missed at the exact moment of the miss.

[noumpere]

If the R1 had not yet reached 2B at the time the BR was retired, score the run.

If the R1 had already passed 2B at the time the BR was retired, the appeal of his miss is a force out and the run is negated.

JM

I agree here just as I did back in post #8 but not as elaquently.

[Jocko]

If the R1 had not yet reached 2B at the time the BR was retired, score the run.

If the R1 had already passed 2B at the time the BR was retired, the appeal of his miss is a force out and the run is negated.

JM

I agree here just as I did back in post #8 but not as elaquently.

or as correctly spelled (el-O-quently )

[Dannytheman]

The Wendelstedt reference that has come up refers to multiple appeals where a following runner is called out on appeal and then a subsequent appeal is made on a preceding runner. If a following runner is put out during live action, this removes the force on preceding runners.

In the OP, since BR was retired at 1st, the force was removed on R1. If an appeal is subsequently made on R1 for the missed base, preceding runners would score.

According to Wendelstedt, the above is not a correct understanding of the WUM interpretation. I emailed Wendelstedt and here is their response:

"I will check out the threads myself, however, the reason why a following runner is put out does not matter. The force is removed if, before reaching his forced base, a following runner is put out. You are correct in your ruling. If the runner had missed second before the BR was put out at first base, this is a force out appeal. If the missed base occurred after the BR was put out, the force would have been removed. Those who argue otherwise would be letting the team who made the mistake off the hook. Take, for instance, your same play. However, the BR is thrown out at second instead of at first. A following runner was still put out. It was still live action (I only use that because it was referenced. At Wendelstedt, we do not differentiate between what some refer to as "relaxed vs. unrelaxed," except in one instance at home plate.) If an appeal were made at second on R1, this would still be a force out since

when he missed the base, he was forced to touch it. Hope this clears it up. Please feel free to post this is response."

***

It doesn't matter if the following runner was put out during live action, or on appeal. The only thing that matters is whether or not a runner was forced to the base he missed at the exact moment of the miss.

Good to know I had this right from the beginning. :wave:

[johnnyg08]

So what's the realistic way to umpire this type of play?

If you're really not sure, do you count the run or not?

Realistically, that's how it is going to play out.

You're going to have to make a call. What's the cleaner end of the stick?

[umpschool]

So what's the realistic way to umpire this type of play?

If you're really not sure, do you count the run or not?

Realistically, that's how it is going to play out.

You're going to have to make a call. What's the cleaner end of the stick?

The mechanics of umpiring this play are not that difficult. The base umpire is responsible for all parts of this play. If he can see the miss of second base, he should be able to know whether this occurred before the out on the BR. If the play on the BR is so imminent that he cannot tell whether R1 has passed second base yet, then he certainly can't tell whether he touched or missed it. The result is that he doesn't call him out on appeal. It has been mentioned that the crew could get together. This is permissible in these types of situations. The plate umpire doesn't need to signal anything right away. The third out has been made and the half-inning is over. If the plate umpire thinks that the runner was rounding second base near the same time as the out on the BR, he can ask the base umpire which occurred first before making a decision as to whether the run scores. As I said above, if the base umpire has the ability to see the missed base and call him out on appeal, and see the out on the BR, it likely occurred before the out.

Not to confuse things further, but take this play:

R1, R3, two outs. R1 steals and gets into a rundown. As the play goes into second base on R1, R3 is nearing the plate. The fielder lays down a tag and R1 slides beyond second base, where the fielder holds the glove on him. After the base umpire makes the out decision, it is permissible for the plate umpire to ask the base umpire whether he was tagged before he reached the base, or only after he slid passed it, if that would make a difference in whether R3's run scores.

[noumpere]

It doesn't matter if the following runner was put out during live action, or on appeal. The only thing that matters is whether or not a runner was forced to the base he missed at the exact moment of the miss.

Well i have to say that on that point I disagree with wendelstat. If theres live action the defense cant be expected to hold off playing on a runner to make an appeal so the order doesnt matter. But if there isnt any live action then the defense has time to make the appeals in the right order and if they dont then the run counts. I think thats also what is in the BRD section printed above.

or as correctly spelled (el-O-quently )

thank you -- spelling is just one of 1001 things I'm not so good at.

[yawetag]

It doesn't matter if the following runner was put out during live action, or on appeal. The only thing that matters is whether or not a runner was forced to the base he missed at the exact moment of the miss.

Well i have to say that on that point I disagree with wendelstat. If theres live action the defense cant be expected to hold off playing on a runner to make an appeal so the order doesnt matter. But if there isnt any live action then the defense has time to make the appeals in the right order and if they dont then the run counts. I think thats also what is in the BRD section printed above.

The appeal on R1 can come later. The miss of the base, however, is dependent on where BR was when he (BR) was put out. If R1's miss occurred as he was still forced to 2B (i.e., BR's out was not a force out), then the appeal is a force out appeal.

[Jocko]

Wow! It takes BALLS to disagree with HWUS. At the end of the day, who do you think is right?

1) an amateur umpire who may or may not have been to a few camps/clinics and called maybe as high as NCAA

2) the professional who TRAINS professionals

No insult intended, but are you NUTS?!? If you were at pro camp discussing this, would you tell Hunter he was wrong? I damn sure wouldn't. I'd endeavor to get a better understanding of the rule and grasp why I was wrong.

[Jocko]

So what's the realistic way to umpire this type of play?

If you're really not sure, do you count the run or not?

Realistically, that's how it is going to play out.

You're going to have to make a call. What's the cleaner end of the stick?

The mechanics of umpiring this play are not that difficult. The base umpire is responsible for all parts of this play. If he can see the miss of second base, he should be able to know whether this occurred before the out on the BR. If the play on the BR is so imminent that he cannot tell whether R1 has passed second base yet, then he certainly can't tell whether he touched or missed it. The result is that he doesn't call him out on appeal. It has been mentioned that the crew could get together. This is permissible in these types of situations.

While getting together is permissable, why would HP be looking at 2B with a possibility of pulled foot/swipe tag appeal? Shouldn't that be where I'm looking, since I have ZERO responsibility at 2B?

[yawetag]

While getting together is permissable, why would HP be looking at 2B with a possibility of pulled foot/swipe tag appeal? Shouldn't that be where I'm looking, since I have ZERO responsibility at 2B?

Technically, with OP's scenario (R1/R3 and base hit to right field), PU is going to 3B to cover R1's advance there (of course, turning his head to watch R3 touch the plate).

[grayhawk]

While getting together is permissable, why would HP be looking at 2B with a possibility of pulled foot/swipe tag appeal? Shouldn't that be where I'm looking, since I have ZERO responsibility at 2B?

I don't think umpschool was saying that PU would be looking at second. He was merely saying that on a play where the 3rd out was made on appeal, he should consult with BU to find out if it was a force or not, and then make the appropriate declaration. I agree with Andrew on PU's positioning and responsibilities on that play.

[yawetag]

I don't think umpschool was saying that PU would be looking at second. He was merely saying that on a play where the 3rd out was made on appeal, he should consult with BU to find out if it was a force or not, and then make the appropriate declaration.

After R3 touches home, what is PU's area of responsibility? While I agree R1 touching 2B isn't PU's responsibility, it's definitely what I'm looking at (along with the location of the ball) as I make my way to 2B, simply because I want to know what R1 is thinking of doing. Therefore, I'll be a good secondary opinion on the situation there, but it's definitely BU's primary call on that touch and when it occurred in comparison to R1's touch of 1B.

If anything, this thread has taught me that as PU, especially with a newer BU, I might want to glance at 1B as well and at least get a timing idea of the touches.

[johnnyg08]

Wow! It takes BALLS to disagree with HWUS. At the end of the day, who do you think is right?

1) an amateur umpire who may or may not have been to a few camps/clinics and called maybe as high as NCAA

2) the professional who TRAINS professionals

No insult intended, but are you NUTS?!? If you were at pro camp discussing this, would you tell Hunter he was wrong? I damn sure wouldn't. I'd endeavor to get a better understanding of the rule and grasp why I was wrong.

Man, I couldn't agree more. One lesson that I learned early in my career, when you're getting trained by guys who work much higher levels than you...4 letters, STFU.

[AZump78]

^^^^^what he said^^^^^

[UmpTTS43]

Yep. I was wrong.

After playing out other senarios where there is a missed base prior to a following runner being put out for various reasons, I realized I misspoke.

The status of the runner at the time of the miss takes precedence.

This is true for OBR only.

[Birdieseeker]

I'm so glad you guys brought up the mechanic in this situation. While reading the thread I was going over it in my head. As the BU in the OP I'm in the B, my responsibilities as I understand it are to check for INT/OB between runner and fielder, take the runner into 2nd then release him and get the touch at first. Here's where I started to think it might get sticky, say it's a rocket to the right of the base runner and to the left of F4. The runner stops to let the ball clear him. All is clean and green so far. However this delays the base runner's progression to 2nd. F9 charges the ball and you have a banger at 1st with the BR. Here's my thinking, I'm letting the throw take me to the play at first. I have to get that right so I may not see the touch at 2nd. I agree with most here on the rule application, BR out before runner reaches 2nd, score the run. If after runner passes 2nd, no run upon proper appeal. My question is...is my thinking correct? Mechanics wise do I sacrifice the touch at 2nd to get a proper angle on the banger at 1st? As for the PU, I'm not sure how much help I'm going to get from him. He's watching for the touch at the plate while working his way up the 3rd BL for a possible play there. Of course I agree in getting together to try and get the call right and maybe he did happen to see a miss at 2nd and bail my ass out but I can't rely on that. Is this just a hole in 2 man or is there something I can do to improve my look at everything going on?

[Birdieseeker]

I love this site, it gets me running through situations in the middle of Dec.!!!

[yawetag]

I have to get that right so I may not see the touch at 2nd. I agree with most here on the rule application, BR out before runner reaches 2nd, score the run. If after runner passes 2nd, no run upon proper appeal. My question is...is my thinking correct? Mechanics wise do I sacrifice the touch at 2nd to get a proper angle on the banger at 1st?

There's no argument that the call at 1B takes priority over ANY other responsibility you have at that time. And, you've found another problem with a two-man system and the holes it causes.

[JaxRolo]

, BR out before runner reaches 2nd, score the run. If after runner passes 2nd, no run upon proper appeal.

Did I miss something here? Shouldn't it be reversed?

[yawetag]

, BR out before runner reaches 2nd, score the run. If after runner passes 2nd, no run upon proper appeal.

Did I miss something here? Shouldn't it be reversed?

It should.

[johnnyg08]

I'm so glad you guys brought up the mechanic in this situation. While reading the thread I was going over it in my head. As the BU in the OP I'm in the B, my responsibilities as I understand it are to check for INT/OB between runner and fielder, take the runner into 2nd then release him and get the touch at first. Here's where I started to think it might get sticky, say it's a rocket to the right of the base runner and to the left of F4. The runner stops to let the ball clear him. All is clean and green so far. However this delays the base runner's progression to 2nd. F9 charges the ball and you have a banger at 1st with the BR. Here's my thinking, I'm letting the throw take me to the play at first. I have to get that right so I may not see the touch at 2nd. I agree with most here on the rule application, BR out before runner reaches 2nd, score the run. If after runner passes 2nd, no run upon proper appeal. My question is...is my thinking correct? Mechanics wise do I sacrifice the touch at 2nd to get a proper angle on the banger at 1st? As for the PU, I'm not sure how much help I'm going to get from him. He's watching for the touch at the plate while working his way up the 3rd BL for a possible play there. Of course I agree in getting together to try and get the call right and maybe he did happen to see a miss at 2nd and bail my ass out but I can't rely on that. Is this just a hole in 2 man or is there something I can do to improve my look at everything going on?

Here's where you just have to umpire. 99.9999999999999% of the people at the ball park will be watching the ball and the play at 1B. Ball always has priority, R1's touch of 2B is your secondary responsibility. You get what you can get with the secondary responsibilities, but the ball is your primary responsibility.