MLB and NCAA ... Fake tag

[HumblePie]

I'm quite aware of the NFHS rule on the fake tag.

Is there ANY fake tag rule or interp in MLB or NCAA when the fielder doesn't push, pull, impede, block, or fall on the runner?  I'm talking about simply tagging and holding the empty glove on the runner.  Bobby Witt's play Saturday would tell me no ... that it's legal in MLB ... and I looked for the words FAKE and OBSTRUCTION in both rule sets and find nothing that would make it illegal.

It's one of those rules in FED that I think is overkill.  If it CAUSES the runner to slide when he would not have slid, I can see why they want it to be illegal, but simply holding an empty glove on a runner to make him think you have the ball is brilliant.

[BLWizzRanger]

31 minutes ago, HumblePie said:

I'm quite aware of the NFHS rule on the fake tag.

Is there ANY fake tag rule or interp in MLB or NCAA when the fielder doesn't push, pull, impede, block, or fall on the runner?  I'm talking about simply tagging and holding the empty glove on the runner.  Bobby Witt's play Saturday would tell me no ... that it's legal in MLB ... and I looked for the words FAKE and OBSTRUCTION in both rule sets and find nothing that would make it illegal.

It's one of those rules in FED that I think is overkill.  If it CAUSES the runner to slide when he would not have slid, I can see why they want it to be illegal, but simply holding an empty glove on a runner to make him think you have the ball is brilliant.

Its a safety rule for FED.  If a fake tag is done at the last minute and the runner tries to slide into a base late and breaks his ankle or comes down and breaks the leg of the fielder, its probably worth it.

And, as with all safety rules in this game or in the public at large, fortunately, the worst circumstance rarely happens.

[DevildogUmp]

I think (key here is think) that a MLB umpire would be looking for the runner to actually attempt to advance before considering obstruction. Usually, the runner is content with just sitting at the bag and letting the defender maintain the fake tag so it would be type B anyway, and without the attempt, I don't see a MLB umpire awarding an advance base. 

[MadMax]

This is one of the Big Differences between NFHS and OBR that is absolutely maddening for: 
- Players (same age) who play both
- Coaches who coach both
- Umpires who officiate both
On one weekend, you could be doing NFHS, and the next – with the exact same participants – you're doing OBR. Best example? Balks (immediately dead vs. delayed dead). Another? Feint to 3rd. Another? Eye-black... I kid, I kid... it's not that big of a deal... 

... or is it? 🤔

Anyway, what is Big is OBS, which also encompasses Fake Tags. Not only does Fed have only one type of OBS, it is rather heavy-handed (I say draconian). Then, invariably, you have kids performing fake tags in USSSA or American Legion event, and – as @HumblePie alluded, being labeled as "brilliant" – being commended or lauded for it ("smart play by the shortstop on that overthrow! The runner didn't have a good look where the ball went"), while that next week, whether playing for their HS, or in a USA Baseball, or Triple-Crown event, playing against those same kids from the previous week, often times by the "same" umpires (or at least guys from the same association), if they perform even a "fake catch" or a fake tag, they get called for OBS. 

[JonnyCat]

21 minutes ago, MadMax said:

This is one of the Big Differences between NFHS and OBR that is absolutely maddening for:

I've said this for many years, I wish all youth baseball would follow NFHS rules. IMO, it would provide better consistency, especially for those moving on to HS.

No need to have multiple rule sets. Do I like every FED rule? No, but it's the best out there for safety and sportsmanship.

[HumblePie]

MadMax,

There is no infraction for a "fake catch" in FED.

YES ... it can cause just as much damage as a fake tag, but that rule does not exist.

There is no case play that would imply that a "fake catch" is to be treated like a fake tag.

[beerguy55]

Rules aside, t can even get a little more nuanced

A fake tag CAN be bush league - Especially if it's done to induce a slide, or worse, as an excuse to smack the runner with an empty glove.  ESPECIALLY at any amateur level.  The pros gotta do what the pros gotta do and this is their job.  A Tuesday night men's league...we all gotta go to work the next morning...I don't need that in my life.  High school kids have part time jobs, or class to attend...and I don't need a bunch of hormonal pubescent teens getting into a brawl over a fake tag either.

Holding an empty glove to a runner that has already slid or is already stationary is a fake tag, but I wouldn't call it bush league.  I'd call it smart.  I'd rather it legal, but I understand the headache it creates in differentiating the scenarios.

And then, of course, there is the tag that is made where the fielder actually believes he had the ball.

So be careful calling that fake tag.

Any player on my team that slapped a fag tag on a runner otherwise coming into a base standing up is getting splinters in their ass.

However, I have indeed coached fake catches...especially on a throw from the outfield to the plate, I'd have my cutoff man slap the glove to pause the runner rounding first.

[Jimurray]

21 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Rules aside, t can even get a little more nuanced

A fake tag CAN be bush league - Especially if it's done to induce a slide, or worse, as an excuse to smack the runner with an empty glove.  ESPECIALLY at any amateur level.  The pros gotta do what the pros gotta do and this is their job.  A Tuesday night men's league...we all gotta go to work the next morning...I don't need that in my life.  High school kids have part time jobs, or class to attend...and I don't need a bunch of hormonal pubescent teens getting into a brawl over a fake tag either.

Holding an empty glove to a runner that has already slid or is already stationary is a fake tag, but I wouldn't call it bush league.  I'd call it smart.  I'd rather it legal, but I understand the headache it creates in differentiating the scenarios.

And then, of course, there is the tag that is made where the fielder actually believes he had the ball.

So be careful calling that fake tag.

Any player on my team that slapped a fag tag on a runner otherwise coming into a base standing up is getting splinters in their ass.

However, I have indeed coached fake catches...especially on a throw from the outfield to the plate, I'd have my cutoff man slap the glove to pause the runner rounding first.

FED has an interp that allows a fake catch of a throw by the outfielder by the fielder on a base. 

[HumblePie]

35 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

FED has an interp that allows a fake catch of a throw by the outfielder by the fielder on a base. 

Is it in the Case Book?

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Holding an empty glove to a runner that has already slid or is already stationary is a fake tag, but I wouldn't call it bush league.

I've been considering this... The difference is huge, and simply holding a glove on a runner who has already slid into a base doesn't seem to fit the spirit of the FED fake tag rule. It's not deception FED is against, it's a safety issue rule...And there's no safety issue if the runner has already slid. 

16 minutes ago, HumblePie said:

Is it in the Case Book?

There is. There's a play where the players run to center field like there was an overthrow while an infielder has the ball...I'm having trouble locating it. 

[BLWizzRanger]

17 minutes ago, Richvee said:

 

There is. There's a play where the players run to center field like there was an overthrow while an infielder has the ball...I'm having trouble locating it. 

Just trying to clear up some confusion I think could be occurring...

So there is a difference between a pitcher faking a pick off at 2nd and the middle infielders act like there was an overthrow.  The pitcher then goes and tags the R2 or gets them in a run down.

This is different than what I read above about a cutoff man slapping their glove on a throw from the outfield and letting the ball go through to the F2.  Or, on a steal of second, F4/F6 runs in front of 2nd and slapping their glove as they let the ball go through from a F2.

[MadMax]

6 hours ago, HumblePie said:

There is no case play that would imply that a "fake catch" is to be treated like a fake tag.

I'm not saying there is one, nor am I saying that a fake catch is to be treated like a fake tag. I chose my quotations-around-term very particularly. 

Please understand – what is or is not semantically in the rulebook does not directly translate to what occurs on the field, both in how the participants perform it and how the umpires officiate / rule / judge on it. 

Example:
Clarence Callsafew (my favorite character) is doing a NFHS -rules-based game. The participants are 14Us who just came from a recent tournament event wherein they were OBR -based, and they got trounced by a travel-ball / academy team who was doing fake tags, and deke'ing catches... all sorts of ploys. So, this team now thinks that sort of stuff to be "free game", so they start doing it. Clarence, as BU, observes this happening... 
The OHC bellows out, "Hey! They can't do that! That's (here's that magic buzzword) bush league!" Clarence hears that, and makes note of it; it checks out in his (limited, granted) recall of the NFHS Rulebook (which he's known for 20 years! I attend the association meeting at the VFW post every year!), and they cannot do ... those sorts of things. 
Now we have R1, who attempts a steal of 2B, and the ball is hit. The F4 imitates a catch of the "liner", and that causes the R1 to freeze, and begin scampering back to 1B. F8 retrieves the ball, and throws to F6/4 at 2B, who Force Out R1 at 2B. "Didnja see that??!! That's bush league!!" comes from the 3BC box, from a HC who is apoplectic. Clarence, ever the good community umpire, calls Time. 
The computation done in his head, he links "Fake" to "illegal" to OBS, and awards R1 (retired) 2B. Even if a DHC tries to argue the validity of his team's actions, the best he can do, in that moment, is say, "But they (their opponents) did that stuff last week!" Sure, he could Protest, but what's that local / community / region / state resolution process on those Protests look like? 

The point of my examples and stories, when it comes to the core rulebooks, is to expose the lack of education and support inherit in NFHS. It is wholly reliant on paper publishing. No videos or graphic diagrams (and no, those meager illustrations don't count), except which (videos, image sequences, diagrams, clinic examples, etc.) individual associations locate and employ. They shouldn't have to. This is a federal entity. There should be a centralized standard. 

I am not saying that fake tags / fake catches / fake whatevers should-or-should-not be legal; I'm demonstrating where the chaos stems from. 

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, HumblePie said:

Is it in the Case Book?

No, I got that from the BRD with no cite. I think the definition of "Fake Tag" supports a fake catch as being a legal deke. But we also can have a tag without the ball that is not fake: 

2013 InterpS:

'SITUATION 19: Caught in a rundown between home and third, R2 is returning to third base when the catcher throws the ball to the third baseman who is covering the base. The third baseman does not catch the ball, which is caught by the shortstop who is backing up the play behind third base. Everyone else, including the third baseman, believes the third baseman has the ball when he tags R2 as he slides back into third base. The third baseman shows the umpire an empty glove and is confused as R2 safely slides into third base. The offensive head coach wants the umpire to declare a fake tag and award R2 home. RULING: This is not a fake tag. The third baseman simply did not catch the ball. (2-22-2)"

[BigBlue4u]

42 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Clarence Callsafew (my favorite character)

That's pretty funny!  😄