"No, he didn't go!"

[AZump78]

Funny, the biggest "argument" I ever had with a partner was over this mechanic. He was FURIOUS at me and literally yelled me into my car after the game for using my "fresh out of umpire school" mechanic of "BALL-NO HE DIDNT GO!". He said that I threw him under the bus by using that phrase and then granting a request for appeal (Seriously?!?)

I use the mechanic for this simple reason. Whenever something happens on the field, players, coaches, fans, everyone look to us to "Answer the Question". If there is a potential for the batter offering at the pitch-answer the question. Either "yes he did" or "Ball-No he didn't go" (or just a strike call if the ball was in the zone : ).

By saying nothing about the swing it could be construed as you not even noticing the check swing!

Anyway, its always good to "Answer the Question," wether its a check swing or situations such as: "That's Nothing!" (possible INT or OBR), "Balls In Play" (possible live ball entering DBT) , etc. These little things are very much noticed by your assignors, evaluators, coaches (who DO report to your higher ups on your work) and can very much help you rise to the top of whatever level you are working.

Question then. If you say "No, he didn't go", aren't they still asking a question and feel it wasn't answered when they want help from your partner? There is no question until the defense wants an appeal to the BU. Then, it is a question. I have never been questioned about if I saw the bat movement or not. The only question which has ever been asked whether by me saying "Ball" or any partner saying "Ball, no he didn't go" is "Can you get some help?". Same question regardless how it is done.

Mr Umpire-I'm pretty sure you answer about 1,000 questions on the baseball field every day without being directly asked anything. You picking up what I'm putting down?

[Umpire in Chief]

I have no problems going to my partner no matter where on the field he is. What's the worst that is going to happen I get another strike?

I don't play games I get it over as soon as possible. If I even hear a coach tell his catcher to appeal I'm on it. It's done it's over. I also don't let my partner call my game for me either.

If I'm on the bases and an appeal comes to me I give him what I've got and I expect the same thing. If I'm not confident enough to override my partner on a close call I ball it.

On this there should be no secret signals or pregame chats beyond if I appeal to you give me what you've got.

[JaxRolo]

I have no problems going to my partner no matter where on the field he is. What's the worst that is going to happen I get another strike?

I don't play games I get it over as soon as possible. If I even hear a coach tell his catcher to appeal I'm on it. It's done it's over. I also don't let my partner call my game for me either.

If I'm on the bases and an appeal comes to me I give him what I've got and I expect the same thing. If I'm not confident enough to override my partner on a close call I ball it.

On this there should be no secret signals or pregame chats beyond if I appeal to you give me what you've got.

+1

Absolutely! It won't hurt a thing.

I will always ask for help if I am asked in the proper way. I will never ask if a coach starts yelling across the field.

Do it properly and I will ask 100% of the time.

[Fittske24]

I will never ask if a coach starts yelling across the field.

In college and in pro you are required to ask 100% of the time as long as the request comes from the coach or catcher.

[JaxRolo]

I will never ask if a coach starts yelling across the field.

In college and in pro you are required to ask 100% of the time as long as the request comes from the coach or catcher.

You are correct. And I will. I guess we are talking about check swing appeals. That's a bit different. I am mainly referring to some close call or something where the coach just comes an the field asking for help and won't appeal properly.

[NWA_UMP]

I view it as a courtesy...if a coach says a word I go to my partner. As stated above...so what, I might get a strike out of the deal :hi5:

[MidAmUmp]

This is a really good topic and I agree with what a lot of people are saying.

I like what someone said about if you have to scream BALL, you probably could have got it for a strike. I would say is if you find yourself doing it a lot, you're probably too tight.

As for check swings -

If I don't know, I ask on my own.

If it is a potential dropped 3rd strike situation, get help immediately. This can gain cred. with coaches - they see you are aware of the situation and are able to take charge without having to be asked. Few things look worse than a catcher returning to the plate after getting a wild pitch, tagging the batter, asking you to get help, and your partner saying he went.

I say, "Ball, no". It gets the point across.

I don't like umpires screaming "no..." because it does put base umpires in a tough spot if they need to overrule the call. Just say it loud enough that the catcher & dugouts can hear.

[Haid D' Salaami]

It is pretty simple... Ball, No he didnt go.. or Ball, no. this way your telling everyone that the pitch was a ball and I ( IMO)did not think he went... If you ( the defense coach/manager/catcher) wants to ask me for help.. Sure I will ask.

BTW we as umpires should be saying ball or strike on every pitch that is not hit or swung and missed..

[UMP45]

Haid it is not written in stone. Personal preference or do what the boss says! For me, saying ball and/or strike helps with my timing.

[yawetag]

It is pretty simple... Ball, No he didnt go.. or Ball, no. this way your telling everyone that the pitch was a ball and I ( IMO)did not think he went...

Wouldn't a simply "Ball" mean the same thing? Why add the "No he didn't go" or the "No" to your call?

[MidAmUmp]

It is pretty simple... Ball, No he didnt go.. or Ball, no. this way your telling everyone that the pitch was a ball and I ( IMO)did not think he went...

Wouldn't a simply "Ball" mean the same thing? Why add the "No he didn't go" or the "No" to your call?

You are acknowledging there was a swing attempt, you saw it, and you didn't think he swung. Same as when we point at the batter if we judged him to have swung and say, "Yes, he did."

[yawetag]

You are acknowledging there was a swing attempt, you saw it, and you didn't think he swung. Same as when we point at the batter if we judged him to have swung and say, "Yes, he did."

Yes, but saying "No, he didn't" isn't going to stop a coach or catcher from having you appeal, so why do it? By saying "ball," you've already determined the batter didn't attempt at the pitch, so adding "no he didn't" is adding more than needed. On the flip side, you're pointing at the batter on the check-swing because you're judging the strike by his attempt at the pitch. By pointing and saying "yes he did," you're announcing the strike was because of the attempt, not the position of the ball.

[mstaylor]

Agreed MidAmUmp, it shows we saw it, judged it and we are pretty confident he didn't go. If it is obvious to everyone that he moved his bat but didn't attempt then just say ball. If you really aren't sure or it is on strike three then ask yourself. However, I am a firm believer if they ask, I ask, no matter what I think.

[MidAmUmp]

You are acknowledging there was a swing attempt, you saw it, and you didn't think he swung. Same as when we point at the batter if we judged him to have swung and say, "Yes, he did."

Yes, but saying "No, he didn't" isn't going to stop a coach or catcher from having you appeal, so why do it? By saying "ball," you've already determined the batter didn't attempt at the pitch, so adding "no he didn't" is adding more than needed. On the flip side, you're pointing at the batter on the check-swing because you're judging the strike by his attempt at the pitch. By pointing and saying "yes he did," you're announcing the strike was because of the attempt, not the position of the ball.

Well...9.04 (a-4) says the plate umpire will make all decisions on the batter. I believe the batter making an attempt to swing at a pitch would be a decision that needs to be announced.

You rule on the pitch AND the swing attempt. If you say he didn't swing then the defense is entitled to an appeal of your decision. But you make all initial decisions on the batter.

When a defensive player is off the base do you just say "safe" or "safe, off the bag"? It is the same principle on the pitch. Answer their question.

Additionally it shows you are in charge and know what you are doing. Just like asking on your own on a potential dropped 3rd strike instead of standing behind the plate giving yourself a rectal exam with your thumb while the catcher is picking up the ball and running back to the plate to tag the batter who thinks he didn't swing.

[D62 blue]

You are acknowledging there was a swing attempt, you saw it, and you didn't think he swung. Same as when we point at the batter if we judged him to have swung and say, "Yes, he did."

Yes, but saying "No, he didn't" isn't going to stop a coach or catcher from having you appeal, so why do it? By saying "ball," you've already determined the batter didn't attempt at the pitch, so adding "no he didn't" is adding more than needed. On the flip side, you're pointing at the batter on the check-swing because you're judging the strike by his attempt at the pitch. By pointing and saying "yes he did," you're announcing the strike was because of the attempt, not the position of the ball.

Well...9.04 (a-4) says the plate umpire will make all decisions on the batter. I believe the batter making an attempt to swing at a pitch would be a decision that needs to be announced.

You rule on the pitch AND the swing attempt. If you say he didn't swing then the defense is entitled to an appeal of your decision. But you make all initial decisions on the batter.

When a defensive player is off the base do you just say "safe" or "safe, off the bag"? It is the same principle on the pitch. Answer their question.

Additionally it shows you are in charge and know what you are doing. Just like asking on your own on a potential dropped 3rd strike instead of standing behind the plate giving yourself a rectal exam with your thumb while the catcher is picking up the ball and running back to the plate to tag the batter who thinks he didn't swing.

saying BALL !!, no he didnt or something to that affect , is just good gm management . you are selling the call , just like with many other calls on the field . selling the call helps to keep them in the dugout more often than not . just IMHO . marc

[yawetag]

When a defensive player is off the base do you just say "safe" or "safe, off the bag"? It is the same principle on the pitch. Answer their question.

Depends. If the runner would have been safe anyway, it's "safe." If the runner would have been out had the defensive player not come off, it's "safe, off the bag." I'm giving the "off the bag" because it's explaining why the runner was safe when, given normal circumstances, he would have been out. In other words, it was the defensive player's mistake that made the runner safe.

It's the same with a check swing that we rule was an attempt. It was the batter's mistake that caused the strike, not the location of the pitch. Therefore, we need to show that the strike was caused by the batter, not the pitch itself. To do so, we give the "yes he did" call.

However, in a check swing that the plate umpire rules isn't an attempt, nothing was done to change the call of "ball." There was no mistake made that changed the outcome of the pitch, so there's no reason to explain why that call was made. The call would be same even if the batter kept the bat on his shoulders, so I see no reason to tell the world he didn't swing -- by saying "ball," I've already told you I didn't think he attempted at the pitch. I do understand that it lets the coaches and players know that I saw the check swing, but I don't think it's going to change whether they appeal or not.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Man you guys from Missouri are driving me crazy...LOL

its pretty simple.. ask your boss what he wants, and do that...

PBUC and all most all of the NCAA DI Conferences Coordinators want.. "Ball, no he didnt go"..

Pretty simple.

[AZump78]

Man you guys from Missouri are driving me crazy...LOL

its pretty simple.. ask your boss what he wants, and do that...

PBUC and all most all of the NCAA DI Conferences Coordinators want.. "Ball, no he didnt go"..

Pretty simple.

+1

[HokieUmp]

its pretty simple.. ask your boss what he wants, and do that...

PBUC and all most all of the NCAA DI Conferences Coordinators want.. "Ball, no he didnt go"..

Pretty simple.

Fair enough. But for those of us that aren't going to The Show, and aren't going the college route, then what? Are we not allowed to find our own way and/or discuss it here?

For example: I used to be in Umipre-in-Chief's association. Now, I'm in Japan on a three-year assignment. If I'm lucky, I'll find some games in 2012, 13, and 14, to at least extend my streak of working years past nine in a row. I'm 46, and with the nomadic life I live, I probably won't get ANY college ball, never mind D1, since I left Hampton Roads before getting to what little college ball was available there.

But that doesn't mean I don't have my ideas, or don't want to hear what else is done/said.

So, is it still that simple now?

[SAB_UIC_TX]

I think this is about having a standard mechanic, what ever it is, so not to cause confusion. Coaches see every umpire use the same mechanic they understand what's happening and how to respond. It's setting and managing expectations much like positioning on the field of the BU, or rotations with Runner on first. Teams, parents, fans, players and coaches see the same thing from every crew. More simply put it's an aspect of game management .

[mstaylor]

If you are in an association, ask how they want it handled. That way you are showing the teams the same thing as an association. If you are working youth ball where mechanics are looser or you can do what works for you then this thread is perfect. I would do it as D1 and PBUC is looking for, it will make you look more professional.

[NCAAump2]

I think the point of saying "Ball, no swing," "Ball, no he didn't go," or some version of that is to let everyone know that you SAW the attempt, JUDGED it to be a no-swing, and RULED on the action. If they want to appeal, they are entitled to that, but this lets them know you're aware of what's going on.

[johnnyg08]

I have never liked that mechanic and don't use it. I have expressed my dislike to Wendelstedt (and I'm sure it will go a long way ). But, some view it as trying to be persuading of the call or helping to deny any appeal. I know it doesn't but some view it that way. To me, saying "Ball" is enough. It says exactly what the call is.

But, what would have cleared everything up would be if the PU does a different mechanic. Especially on any borderline one as the OP. Call "Ball" and point to BU asking if he went. Then, it is completely clear once the BU makes his call. After that, there is no question of what to do on the play. This is how I have done it and everything has worked great.

A whole lot clearer than to say "Ball, no he didn't go". Then, have the defense ask your partner and your partner says "Yes, he did". And, if you argue that the BU should agree after PU says "no he didn't go", then you have just proven the "persuading the call" part of others argument.

I disagree. "Ball, no he didn't" and immediately appeal to my partner. It's preventative officiating. I've never had anybody tell me that I'm trying to avoid an appeal by saying that. You know they're probably going to ask anyway, so I try to beat them to the punch.

[mstaylor]

I have never liked that mechanic and don't use it. I have expressed my dislike to Wendelstedt (and I'm sure it will go a long way ). But, some view it as trying to be persuading of the call or helping to deny any appeal. I know it doesn't but some view it that way. To me, saying "Ball" is enough. It says exactly what the call is.

But, what would have cleared everything up would be if the PU does a different mechanic. Especially on any borderline one as the OP. Call "Ball" and point to BU asking if he went. Then, it is completely clear once the BU makes his call. After that, there is no question of what to do on the play. This is how I have done it and everything has worked great.

A whole lot clearer than to say "Ball, no he didn't go". Then, have the defense ask your partner and your partner says "Yes, he did". And, if you argue that the BU should agree after PU says "no he didn't go", then you have just proven the "persuading the call" part of others argument.

I disagree. "Ball, no he didn't" and immediately appeal to my partner. It's preventative officiating. I've never had anybody tell me that I'm trying to avoid an appeal by saying that. You know they're probably going to ask anyway, so I try to beat them to the punch.

Check swings are a tough call that we don't always get a good look at for a variety of reasons.

Type1: Hitter starts his swing but stops it short, you have a good look at it. You should say, "Ball, no he didn't go."

Type 2: It is borderline but you still think you got a look but aren't 100% sure. Simply say ball. If they ask for an appeal, ask your partner.

Type 3: It is borderline and the catcher popped or you just didn't get a look. Say,"Ball, did he go?" If you aren't sure, ask imediately.

Type 4: Check swing with two strikes. If you don't have a swing but it is close, ask imediately.

I would not say "No he didn't" then ask without the offense asking. If you are going to ask then just call it a ball.

[AZump78]

its pretty simple.. ask your boss what he wants, and do that...

PBUC and all most all of the NCAA DI Conferences Coordinators want.. "Ball, no he didnt go"..

Pretty simple.

Fair enough. But for those of us that aren't going to The Show, and aren't going the college route, then what? Are we not allowed to find our own way and/or discuss it here?

For example: I used to be in Umipre-in-Chief's association. Now, I'm in Japan on a three-year assignment. If I'm lucky, I'll find some games in 2012, 13, and 14, to at least extend my streak of working years past nine in a row. I'm 46, and with the nomadic life I live, I probably won't get ANY college ball, never mind D1, since I left Hampton Roads before getting to what little college ball was available there.

But that doesn't mean I don't have my ideas, or don't want to hear what else is done/said.

So, is it still that simple now?

I think he was simply pointing out what college conferences and PBUC suggest as a guide for lower levels as well, not to disregard your thoughts on the matter. Often times we all look to CAA or PBUC or MLB mechanics/approved rulings, etc as a guide.

No matter if you work in Japan or Virginia, the Big East or BFE Little League, you are 99.9% likely to work for an association. If you desire to do games for them, work playoffs, get the championship plate job, etc it really is probably best to just ask them how they prefer you handle this mechanic and comply.

Of course that's not to say we can beat it to death on the boards just for sh*ts and giggles...It is the offseason (for most of us) anyway...