What do you see?

[The Man in Blue]

Balk or no balk?  Why?

[jimurrayalterego]

4 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Balk or no balk?  Why?

IMG_4711.mov

Nothing. 

[grayhawk]

They might balk that little hand move in MLB, but I'm not balking it in my game.

[BigBlue4u]

Nothing here either.  A little weird, but no advantage gained and no attempt to deceive.  Take a look at LA Angels relief pitcher Kenley Jansen.

[SeeingEyeDog]

I don't have a balk here HOWEVER...

I really DO NOT like this trend of what I refer to as the "multiple stop stretch delivery". I don't care if F1 does it every time. I don't think it's deceptive in terms of "fooling the baserunners" or in some way impacting their ability to take leads, steal, etc...but, I do think from a developmental perspective this kind of delivery offers some protection from doing OTHER things that could lead to balks. This is a crutch if you will...

As an umpire, I would really like to see OBR, NCAA and FED include specific language prohibiting this kind of delivery...

Nobody asked me,
~Dawg

[Thatsnotyou]

I don’t love it either re: multiple stops. But if he’s doing this every single time, I’m good with it. We know it, we see it, other team does too…no advantage. Now if he starts coming to a “final” stop at various points in there and then delivering…now I’m going to have an issue with it. I’ve never had anyone do it that I can recall. 

[The Man in Blue]

I’m not making an argument either way, but I will poke a bit … 

5 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Nothing here either.  A little weird, but no advantage gained and no attempt to deceive.  Take a look at LA Angels relief pitcher Kenley Jansen.

 

53 minutes ago, Thatsnotyou said:

I don’t love it either re: multiple stops. But if he’s doing this every single time, I’m good with it. We know it, we see it, other team does too…no advantage. Now if he starts coming to a “final” stop at various points in there and then delivering…now I’m going to have an issue with it. I’ve never had anyone do it that I can recall. 

Rule book language?

[MadMax]

7 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I really DO NOT like this trend of what I refer to as the "multiple stop stretch delivery".

2 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

I don’t love it either re: multiple stops. But if he’s doing this every single time, I’m good with it… Now if he starts coming to a “final” stop at various points in there and then delivering…now I’m going to have an issue with it.

Your sentiments are blunted by the Rules; as in, there’s nothing in the Rules that states F1 cannot do this. He’s not bound to repeat it, he’s not bound to do it (coming set) the same way every time, or successively. He simply has to satisfy the Rules as written. 

Ever hear a (defensive) coach espouse, “Vary your looks!”? This is what they’re referring to! In fairness, in amateur baseball, these coaches proclaiming this are the same guys who give you grief from the BC boxes, “Hey Blue! He’s balking! He’s gotta do it (come set) the same way every time!” To be fair, some do know it’s acceptable to vary how a F1 can come set, but they will “play dumb” so as to influence amateur umpires! 

7 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

As an umpire, I would really like to see OBR, NCAA and FED include specific language prohibiting this kind of delivery...

It’ll never happen; from any of the three. The only one which addresses a specific nuance of a delivery is NCAA (as we’ve famously debated here and in other forums). Of course, we “inside the theater” (of NCAA baseball) have the benefit of video examples. However, this is where the three rule codes not so much let us down, but fall a tad short; they do not provide video examples, photos, or illustrations. If they did, it would open Pandora’s Box and obfuscate and overcomplicate the Rules. 

As @maven states often throughout these forums – just because it looks odd doesn’t necessarily mean it’s illegal. 

[Thatsnotyou]

Hard disagree. He comes set on the second progression and pitches, now it’s very easy for me to see that second progression as a stop every time. When he goes to a third progression, well, it may have looked like a set on the second one. Now I’m watching every single part of the set with a lot of scrutiny, and you’re likely getting balked for appearing set if you’re going to play that game. 
 

When coaches say vary your looks, it’s not referencing setting four times. Or three times. It’s referencing looking at the baserunner. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

46 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Your sentiments are blunted by the Rules; as in, there’s nothing in the Rules that states F1 cannot do this. He’s not bound to repeat it, he’s not bound to do it (coming set) the same way every time, or successively. He simply has to satisfy the Rules as written. 

Ever hear a (defensive) coach espouse, “Vary your looks!”? This is what they’re referring to! In fairness, in amateur baseball, these coaches proclaiming this are the same guys who give you grief from the BC boxes, “Hey Blue! He’s balking! He’s gotta do it (come set) the same way every time!” To be fair, some do know it’s acceptable to vary how a F1 can come set, but they will “play dumb” so as to influence amateur umpires! 

It’ll never happen; from any of the three. The only one which addresses a specific nuance of a delivery is NCAA (as we’ve famously debated here and in other forums). Of course, we “inside the theater” (of NCAA baseball) have the benefit of video examples. However, this is where the three rule codes not so much let us down, but fall a tad short; they do not provide video examples, photos, or illustrations. If they did, it would open Pandora’s Box and obfuscate and overcomplicate the Rules. 

As @maven states often throughout these forums – just because it looks odd doesn’t necessarily mean it’s illegal. 

Max, respectfully...I must disagree...it's a stop/start balk. If they are BOUNCING through multiple steps of the lead foot, then they are not coming set in those steps and I'm ok, as long as at some point F1 gives me a full stop (discernable pause) of his ENTIRE BODY, of course...in my judgement.

But, if F1 is coming to a full stop, then lifting his leg and stopping again and again...that's a stop/start balk. And this is why I don't like this delivery for one bit. Here we are, multiple umpires look at the same film of the same delivery by the same player...and coming to different conclusions about its legality.

Hey, I get it...it's a game. Seriously contested games need officiating by neutral parties executing judgement. We are ALWAYS going to have some variances in judgement. We're never going to get to 0% variance. I just think this is a prime opportunity to close a loophole that is a problem for umpires, for coaches and for players.

And yes..."varying your looks" means many things. How many times you visually check runners, the height and length of your stride to the plate, your pickoff moves, the amount of time you hold your set prior to delivery or the pickoff...

I've been given clear direction from my association not to call this "multiple stop stretch delivery" a balk. So, I'm good in terms of knowing what I am supposed to be doing...I just don't think we should be doing that but, I'm not in a policy setting position with it all.

~Dawg

[jimurrayalterego]

46 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Max, respectfully...I must disagree...it's a stop/start balk. If they are CONTINOUSLY BOUNCING through multiple steps of the lead

And this is why I don't like this delivery for one bit.

I've been given clear direction from my association not to call this "multiple stop stretch delivery" a balk. So, I'm good in terms of knowing what I am supposed to be doing...I just don't think we should be doing that but, I'm not in a policy setting position with it all.

~Dawg

Added the blue bolded. 

Citing the rule: 

"Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position as defined in Rule 5.07(a)(2) without interruption and in one continuous motion."

Citing the penalty: 

" "

I agree that umps, including MLB umps let Marianno Rivera and numerous other pitchers come set con, con ,con continuously and I don't have a problem with it as it can be discerned as continuous. I do have a problem with balking pitchers who stop coming set which violates the same rule which has no PENALTY when the stop was part of stepping off. MLB umps are guilty of this. Ye we all balk starting to come set and stopping but the MLB balks when pitchers stop coming set to step off are inane, considering what they allow that pitcher to to to to do do do while coming set.

[dumbdumb]

well, i think this guy started a lot of things, but it was the hands, not the foot and mlb decided as long as he was continuing down to his definitive set at the waist he could do the hands shake deal without getting a balk called. that is how they justified not having to call it, nor having the better balk (just like some umpires are better with balls and strikes) umpires having to be the only ones calling it. and, in the 80's the non set guys who were freezing the runner by kicking towards home before the hands got to the fully set position. they rescinded that as so many balks were called said  the old guy i met. it was much simplier when you just had the guys with very distinct set times after fully stopping, or the jim palmers who fully set at different heights and varied their very distinct set times, and they did not play the footsie thing (maybe soccer caused all this footsie thing). and i think japan had the 1 second stop put in print so their pitchers could not start to the plate before comming to their set. dont know if that is still their rule

ah @MadMax 'inside the theater' like inside the mlb umpire manual that i have not seen on here other than the 2019 or i think i saw a 2020 version. so, we are 5 years out from that one. and 'coaches playing dumb' you jest don't you?

 

[beerguy55]

This is the Kevin Gausman maneuver, and it sometimes seems to be a bit of a crapshoot when he is and isn't balked.

[RBIbaseball]

As a self proclaimed balk expert, I have absolutely nothing here. And I probably call no stop balks more than anyone I've worked with in the past couple years as I've gained confidence. Some of these kids are really good and know exactly what they are doing, and we owe it to the running team to keep the pitcher honest imo.

For anyone who says he start/stopped every time his leg goes down, I don't understand how you are coming to that conclusion. He is clearly continuing to move. Remember, everything has to stop, so feet moving, leg moving, arms moving, his body leaning - is movement... the hands/glove have to stop as well, but the glove 'slightly' moving while changing grip is nothing imo. Also, remember that "a change in direction is not considered an acceptable stop" (NFHS 6-1-3), ie it does not constitute a discernable stop.
 

I agree with @MadMax . Not something that will ever be addressed or can reasonably be policed. We have to allow a pitcher to get his footing and gain his balance in coming set. The tradeoff: pitchers using that to bounce around, pushing the limits, annoying fans and umpires, and looking silly. Either to "change their timing" or gain a rhythm, it is what it is. 

IMO, It's not that big of a deal when 1. you understand it, and 2. (maybe more importantly) are focused / locked in EVERY PITCH. It's VERRRRY easy to miss if you're not lasered in. Then you go, hmm, did he stop, I should have called that... Then you got the 3rd base coach looking over at you giving you a subtle signal that he wants that call. Well let's be honest, more times than not most everyone misses it. At the varsity level its hit and miss on on teams catching it in my experience.

[UAME]

I would like to throw this out for opinion/scrutiny from the more seasoned umpires here, as I've just finished my 4th season of umpiring (all at the high school level.)

As mentioned in a prior reply, I've learned that a huge part of performance is finding a way to be locked in on every pitch.  Mentally, I rarely have any moments of rest in a game, continually assigning myself a task/checklist.

For a pitcher using the Set who has any variant of this "multiple movement" delivery, I won't let myself drop down into my "locked/set" position (for calling balls & strikes) until F1 meets my definition of a complete stop.  When he stops, I drop.  If he never stops (to my satisfaction) and suddenly I have a pitch headed towards the plate, I'm yelling "Time", stepping out from behind the batter, and issuing the Balk.

Do any of you use any similar routine/procedure that keeps you in rhythm watching for a violation?  Any arguments that I should not be using a technique like this? 

[jimurrayalterego]

43 minutes ago, UAME said:

 

 

Do any of you use any similar routine/procedure that keeps you in rhythm watching for a violation?  Any arguments that I should not be using a technique like this? 

That is a technique I recommend to new umps with any style set pitcher.

[The Man in Blue]

10 hours ago, UAME said:

I would like to throw this out for opinion/scrutiny from the more seasoned umpires here, as I've just finished my 4th season of umpiring (all at the high school level.)

As mentioned in a prior reply, I've learned that a huge part of performance is finding a way to be locked in on every pitch.  Mentally, I rarely have any moments of rest in a game, continually assigning myself a task/checklist.

For a pitcher using the Set who has any variant of this "multiple movement" delivery, I won't let myself drop down into my "locked/set" position (for calling balls & strikes) until F1 meets my definition of a complete stop.  When he stops, I drop.  If he never stops (to my satisfaction) and suddenly I have a pitch headed towards the plate, I'm yelling "Time", stepping out from behind the batter, and issuing the Balk.

Do any of you use any similar routine/procedure that keeps you in rhythm watching for a violation?  Any arguments that I should not be using a technique like this? 

 

I even do this on the bases.  I don't start to go into my crouch until he stops.  If I don't get well into my crouch before he is delivering, odds are he blew through the pause.

[UAME]

8 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

I even do this on the bases.  I don't start to go into my crouch until he stops.  If I don't get well into my crouch before he is delivering, odds are he blew through the pause.

In our association, we are trained as the base ump to go HOK set as soon as the pitcher engages the rubber, just as a courtesy for the PU who may not be able to see whether F1 is in contact.

I do have my own separate method for the bases:  when I go HOK, I tell myself "stretch/windup" based on how F1 aligns his pivot foot.  I silently say the words "stretch...... Set." (Set = giving him credit for stopping, if he does.)

[834k3r]

21 hours ago, UAME said:

If he never stops (to my satisfaction) and suddenly I have a pitch headed towards the plate, I'm yelling "Time", stepping out from behind the batter, and issuing the Balk.

This will work in NFHS (until live balks), but I think could be problematic in OBR games.

2 hours ago, UAME said:

In our association, we are trained as the base ump to go HOK set as soon as the pitcher engages the rubber, just as a courtesy for the PU who may not be able to see whether F1 is in contact.

This is what I do personally as well--a mental mnemonic for me.

[jimurrayalterego]

35 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

This will work in NFHS (until live balks), but I think could be problematic in OBR games.

 

Which is why NFHS changed the call some years ago to calling the balk before calling time.