Double First Base Play

[grayhawk]

3 hours ago, Velho said:

Was just discussing with someone who does college. His understanding was it's flexible. Is the white base only direction from the NCAA rulebook, interp, or other? 

Is there a U3k exception?

U3k is the ONLY exception. Otherwise, the fielder must use the white base. 

[The Man in Blue]

5 hours ago, Richvee said:

The throw pulling F3 into foul ground doesn't give him the right to use the colored base. It gives the runner the right to use either 

 

Then I would caution that NCAA be VERY  clear on this nuance, as many codes dictate that this becomes a “switch” and the defense uses the colored and the offense takes the white.  (No, I don’t like it.  This rule should be kept very simple and very clear.)

I had *assumed* that’s what you meant, thank you for clarifying.  

 

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, Velho said:

Was just discussing with someone who does college. His understanding was it's flexible. Is the white base only direction from the NCAA rulebook, interp, or other? 

Is there a U3k exception?

I posted the very clear and very simple rule.  Anything else is coming from interps just mucking it up.

[Velho]

46 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

U3k is the ONLY exception. Otherwise, the fielder must use the white base. 

@grayhawk Anything I can reference him to? Rulebook, online interp, weekly publication, etc?

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, Velho said:

His understanding was it's flexible

On a batted ball, a fielder cannot record an out by using the colored base. 

NCAA pdf’s, the rule, the on line clinic,  video bulletins, you name it. There’s a ton of things all NCAA officials have access to, and they should have read/ viewed them all. There really should be no doubt in any NCAA umpire’s mind on this.   

[ousafe]

12 hours ago, Richvee said:

There really should be no doubt in any NCAA umpire’s mind on this.

To be fair, you can say the same for any (non-parent) LL umpire...

[Richvee]

3 hours ago, ousafe said:

To be fair, you can say the same for any (non-parent) LL umpire...

I'm not familiar with LL anymore. I'm not sure how diligent LL is on making sure every member has access and is informed by website notes and emails each and every time an interp, play review, etc. is published. 

I know FED has very little follow up, requirements to read and be aware of interps. They sure don't do any follow up videos or bulletins.  My guess is half the county's varsity umpires haven't seen the 2025 interps put out last week.

NCAA sends everything out in an email, and if logging in on Refquest, you'll have messages informing you of the videos and interps you haven't watched, or anything else released by NCAA that you haven't  read yet. NCAA has made it very difficult to say "I didn't see that memo" ...Same cannot be said for FED...and I can't comment on LL. 

[Velho]

LL is veryyyy league dependent. Comparing to the standards @Richvee outlined, next to none get to the NCAA standard and the good ones get somewhere near the FED standard. (of course we have to acknowledge it's volunteer org and that there are more LL umpires and "associations" (i.e. leagues) than all the other levels combined).

@orangebird group is one of the most proactive I've heard of. Most avoid requiring a test since it would lower the pool of umpires.

[orangebird]

44 minutes ago, Velho said:

LL is veryyyy league dependent. Comparing to the standards @Richvee outlined, next to none get to the NCAA standard and the good ones get somewhere near the FED standard. (of course we have to acknowledge it's volunteer org and that there are more LL umpires and "associations" (i.e. leagues) than all the other levels combined).

@orangebird group is one of the most proactive I've heard of. Most avoid requiring a test since it would lower the pool of umpires.

Yeah I don't believe either of my orgs are official capital-L Little Leagues so I'm not sure how much any official guidance from the official Little League would apply to us. But yeah everything in my county will require a test, hoping to be 2-for-2 on those soon lol  

[beerguy55]

 

 

On 3/1/2025 at 8:37 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Then I would caution that NCAA be VERY  clear on this nuance, as many codes dictate that this becomes a “switch” and the defense uses the colored and the offense takes the white.  (No, I don’t like it.  This rule should be kept very simple and very clear.)

Yup - always hated it.

Used to be orange was for batter, white for fielder - purely for safety purpose. Simple.  And served it's purpose.

Now it seems everyone wants to make up SH*# as they go along and no one is standard - I've seen all of these in baseball/softball in Canada and US:

• F3 can use orange ONLY on U3K
• F3 can use orange on any throw that comes from first base foul territory (eg. batted ball deflects off pitcher to foul area, F2 makes throw)
• F3 can use orange on any throw from anywhere if said throw pulls him to foul territory
• Then for all the above, I've seen B/R MUST switch, and B/R MAY switch.

JFC

[MadMax]

Have you ever heard the phrase, “Smarter people than us have gone round and round on this”? This seems to be one of those cases. 

However. 

I believe I have the answer. It’s remarkably obvious, when you hear / see it. It solves all the problems. And, it even remedies the peril that BRs are in by stepping forcefully upon a raised surface like the base is. 

I’m being completely serious. There is no jest here. Just please pardon me on not disclosing it here in public… if you have the ear (or eyes) of someone of influence in NCAA baseball (and it could easily and readily precipitate into the rest of amateur baseball), then PM me, and we’ll present it to them. 
As I said, it will fix everything. 

[johnnyg08]

Yeah, the switch is incredibly unfair to the runner. 

Keep the defense on the inside. Runner stays outside.

And not as a shot...but they're no smarter than us...they're people just like us. 

Were/are they well intended...of course. Are they capable of errors & mistakes. Yep. 

We watch a crew of four w/ two CWS umpires who kicked the $hit out of the hidden ball trick. Mistakes happen. Umpiring is hard. 

[grayhawk]

10 hours ago, MadMax said:

Just please pardon me on not disclosing it here in public… if you have the ear (or eyes) of someone of influence in NCAA baseball (and it could easily and readily precipitate into the rest of amateur baseball), then PM me, and we’ll present it to them. 

Not falling for it. I'm not going to be Rickrolled.

[MadMax]

34 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Not falling for it. I'm not going to be Rickrolled.

I wouldn’t do that to you. 

But I will not post it publicly until a PTB has been presented with it. I’m not falling for that, where I put it on the table, and suddenly, a game of Telephone breaks out. 
Nope. This thing is too valuable – it fixes everything. 

A PTB / POI. You know how to reach me. 

[Velho]

Let's play cricket instead. Those umpires move a lot less. And rarely get hit.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Let's play cricket instead. Those umpires move a lot less

But, from what I saw, they wear lab coats. 🥼 

[834k3r]

13 minutes ago, MadMax said:

But, from what I saw, they wear lab coats. 🥼 

Aussie Rules football, too.

[Velho]

34 minutes ago, MadMax said:

But, from what I saw, they wear lab coats. 🥼 

Ha! Maybe in Test matches (which, screw that, even before considering the lab coat look). ODI and T20 that I watch are dressed in polos of some sort (usually long sleeve).

They also get to wear sweet sun hats. As a folical deficient person of Nordic decent, I like that a lot.

[Replacematt]

10 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Yeah, the switch is incredibly unfair to the runner. 

Maybe I'm thinking of a different definition of the word than you, but there's no switch in NCAA.

I think people are overcomplicating this.

Defense--always white, with the option of both on U3K.
Offense--always colored (except on balls to the outfield,) with the option of both on U3K or to avoid a collision with the defender crossing the foul line.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Replacematt said:

(except on balls to the outfield

Agree - it’s that easy.

But I’d clarify this just a bit.
Our interpreter said white is OK for the BR “as long as there’s no play at 1b”. 
 A booted GB with no throw, force at another base with no return throw to 1b, etc. BR can use white or colored. 

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, Replacematt said:

Maybe I'm thinking of a different definition of the word than you, but there's no switch in NCAA.

I think people are overcomplicating this.

Defense--always white, with the option of both on U3K.
Offense--always colored (except on balls to the outfield,) with the option of both on U3K or to avoid a collision with the defender crossing the foul line.

You left off one:

No play on the BR at 1st - BR can use either bag. (Rich beat me by a few minutes).

But then there's these that offer complexity for U1:

Close play, BR beats it but steps on the white bag. Out with a sweeping mechanic with the right hand.
Play at 1st, but BR has both feet on the ground past the base. No call. DO NOT call time. BR is out on appeal (tag runner or step on 1st with unmistakeable appeal).

 

[Richvee]

5 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

(Rich beat me by a few minutes

I only beat you because you added more correct detail 👍

[grayhawk]

Just found out this isn't all theory for me. While none of the D2 schools, as far as I know, are using the double 1st base, and one D3 school is (but I don't have any games there this season), there is one JUCO that is going to be putting one in where I do have games. Yay me.

[Richvee]

26 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Just found out this isn't all theory for me. While none of the D2 schools, as far as I know, are using the double 1st base, and one D3 school is (but I don't have any games there this season), there is one JUCO that is going to be putting one in where I do have games. Yay me.

More will follow. I would bet they will be the norm in NCAA soon enough. 

[The Man in Blue]

7 hours ago, MadMax said:

But, from what I saw, they wear lab coats. 🥼 

Yeah, but when you dodge a ball coming at you, you look REALLY cool . . .