Officially starting my little league umpire journey tomorrow

[Richvee]

42 minutes ago, orangebird said:

I do know at least one tricky question I avoided falling for

The wording was basically "With a runner on first and one out, the batter swings and missed at the third strike in the dirt. He runs to first, R1 runs to second, the catcher overthrows first base and R1 scores and the the batter ends the play standing on second, what is the correct call?"

And it was "batter is out, not a dropped third strike situation, runner scores" and I realized I don't think either training covered exactly how that play should be handled but once I stared at it for a bit I realized that the baserunner taking off for second is just a very chaotic stolen base attempt and whatever happens to him from there counts the same as if he took off on any other non-foul ball strike 

The way I handle this in game situations- when the batter takes off for 1b, reiterate “Batter’s out! Batter’s out!”  If he keeps running, and the defense throws, it’s on them. 

[orangebird]

2 minutes ago, Richvee said:

The way I handle this in game situations- when the batter takes off for 1b, reiterate “Batter’s out! Batter’s out!”  If he keeps running, and the defense throws, it’s on them. 

Yeah I can't imagine LLers would fully grasp it but if I was a HS coach I'd make sure my team knew the rules to try to bait throws like that on offense 

[Velho]

25 minutes ago, orangebird said:

35 minutes ago, Richvee said:

The way I handle this in game situations- when the batter takes off for 1b, reiterate “Batter’s out! Batter’s out!”  If he keeps running, and the defense throws, it’s on them. 

Yeah I can't imagine LLers would fully grasp it but if I was a HS coach I'd make sure my team knew the rules to try to bait throws like that on offense 

@Richvee nailed the way LL teaches it: "Batter's out!" "Batter's OUT!" Batter's STILL OUT!"

[orangebird]

Also the question that definitely made me go "wait...that's how it works?" was (paraphrasing) 

"The catcher commits defensive interference but the ball is still put in play. The runner is thrown out at second. What's the outcome of the play?"

The correct answer was the batter is out, because the reward is only one base for that play and anything after that he's on his own...however my understanding was catcher's interference you let the hitting team's coach pick if he wants the outcome of the play or the 1-base reward? If that rule goes out the window the second you try for second then fair enough but that really stood out to me as a pretty tricky one that I'd be shocked if more than 10% of the class got. 

 

[Velho]

41 minutes ago, orangebird said:

.however my understanding was catcher's interference you let the hitting team's coach pick if he wants the outcome of the play or the 1-base reward? If that rule goes out the window the second you try for second then fair enough but that really stood out to me as a pretty tricky one that I'd be shocked if more than 10% of the class got. 

It's not a completely free play. The choice only applies if the batter and all other runners do not advance one base. After all, if everyone advanced, then what did the catcher interfere with? 😉

[834k3r]

43 minutes ago, orangebird said:

Also the question that definitely made me go "wait...that's how it works?" was (paraphrasing) 

"The catcher commits defensive interference but the ball is still put in play. The runner is thrown out at second. What's the outcome of the play?"

The correct answer was the batter is out, because the reward is only one base for that play and anything after that he's on his own...however my understanding was catcher's interference you let the hitting team's coach pick if he wants the outcome of the play or the 1-base reward? If that rule goes out the window the second you try for second then fair enough but that really stood out to me as a pretty tricky one that I'd be shocked if more than 10% of the class got. 

 

CI has been discussed several times before my time here and at least once since I started lurking a few years ago. There are valid points on both sides of the issue, but where I "land the plane"--as well as others--is take the outcome of the play and have the coach ask about his option. The strong caveat in your instance is the coaches probably aren't going to know they have an option.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

The choice only applies if the batter and all other runners do not advance one base.

Not quite correct. You’re confusing a Balk with CI. 

Simplest way to demonstrate this is R3 only. CI occurs, with a weak grounder to F3, who fields it, steps on 1B, retiring BR. R3 remains at 3B. 

“Time! That was Catcher’s Interference! You (at BR), First Base! You (at R3) stay there!” 
Did R3 advance one base? No. He wasn’t forced to, thus he isn’t awarded an advanced base. 

Let’s change the play – this time, R3 comes in to score (on the initial play). Once all play has relaxed, we still enforce the CI – “Time! That was Catcher’s Interference! You (BR) First Base!… You! (Find the scored R3) Back to Third Base!” At this point, this is where the option is discussed. In professional baseball, and college baseball where the coaches are making more than the price of a sports car, the coach should approach you and inquire about the Option. For best practice, in the amateur game, you (as umpire) can state that the Option exists, presenting it to them. In this play situation, the Option is either: 

1. BR awarded, and now on 1B. R3 remains on 3B (TOP). No outs on the play. Or… 
2. R3 scores, and BR is Out. 

Let’s do two more plays, as good examples… 

The first is R1-R3. CI occurs, with a tailor-made DP resulting. We don’t kill the play until all play has ceased, but we start with “Time!” and we go through the whole shpiel of acknowledging the CI, and awarding and placing runners. Unless there were 0 outs at TOP, no manager or coach is going to take the Option. The results of this penalty is R1-R2-R3, no (additional) outs on the play. 

The second one is trickier… say we have R2 only, with 2 Outs. CI occurs, with a blooper landing in front of F9… who comes up firing to: 

1. Throw to F2 at the plate, who tags out R2. Third out, inning over. 
2. Throw to F2 at the plate, who doesn’t have a play on R2 (who scores), and instead snaps a throw off to F3 (to backpick BR) or 2B to tag out BR. Third out, 1 run scored, inning over. 
3. Throw to F3 directly, retiring BR before he gets to 1B (maybe BR stays at the plate, assuming you as PU will kill & fix the CI immediately). “Time!” CI acknowledged, BR is awarded 1B, R2 placed back at 2B, and the inning continues (still) with 2 Outs. 
4. Throw to the infield, cut off, and relayed to F3 who tags BR after he obtains 1B and rounds it. This is now a… say it with me!… time play. R2’s scoring is dependent upon whether or not he scored before the tag of BR occurred. 

As best practice, always: 

1. Call / acknowledge the CI (as PU). 
2. Let the play complete fully before killing it (exception, infield fly situation, with CI that will result in an IFF. Kill it promptly). 
3. Enforce the CI first, then entertain inquiry about or present The Option. 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

3 hours ago, Velho said:

The choice only applies if the batter and all other runners do not advance one base.

Not quite correct. You’re confusing a Balk with CI. 

Can you help me reconcile that with OBR 5.05(b)(3) below?

 

5.05(b)(3) The catcher or any fielder interferes with him. If a play

follows the interference, the manager of the offense

may advise the plate umpire that he elects to decline the

interference penalty and accept the play. Such election shall

be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the

batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a

hit batsman, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at

least one base, the play proceeds without reference to the

interference.

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

 

“Time! That was Catcher’s Interference! You (at BR), First Base! You (at R3) stay there!” 
Did R3 advance one base? No. He wasn’t forced to, thus he isn’t awarded an advanced base. 

Choice exists

Throw to F3 directly, retiring BR before he gets to 1B (maybe BR stays at the plate, assuming you as PU will kill & fix the CI immediately). “Time!” CI acknowledged, BR is awarded 1B, R2 placed back at 2B, and the inning continues (still) with 2 Outs. 

3. Throw to F3 directly, retiring BR before he gets to 1B (maybe BR stays at the plate, assuming you as PU will kill & fix the CI immediately). “Time!” CI acknowledged, BR is awarded 1B, R2 placed back at 2B, and the inning continues (still) with 2 Outs.

Choice exists

@Velho is correct. Check my bold above. You are just giving examples of where the choice exists but would never be exercised, except maybe by @beerguy55 if he wanted to punish a BR for not hustling.

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

In this play situation, the Option is either: 

1. BR awarded, and now on 1B. R3 remains on 3B (TOP). No outs on the play. Or… 
2. R3 scores, and BR is Out. 

btw - for any coaches reading this...the correct choice is almost always #1, no matter the number of outs.

• Runners on first and third zero out - expected runs 1.76  (zero runs only 14% of the time - 2 runs or more 43% chance) vs
• Zero runners, one out - expected runs 0.26 + the run scored

 

• Runners on first and third one out - 1.18 (28% chance to score two or more runs) vs
• Zero runners, two out - 0.10 + run scored (7% chance to score at least one more run)

With one out it's a little closer, but the upside makes it a no brainer.  

 

Unless this is the last inning in a one-run game, save the out.  And if I'm behind by one, I'll still consider option 1 and try for 2 or more.* Outs are your most precious commodity, not runs.  Buy into that and you'll win a lot of games by a lot of runs.

 

*I'm also a staunch believer that a team that scores a TD in the final minute, down by one, should go for two, not try for OT.

[Velho]

4 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

btw - for any coaches reading this...

I'll add, just in case there is confusion: there is no "option" on a balk. The balk is either enforced or a qualifying play leads to ignoring the balk. You don't get a choice.

(Not saying anyone said that. I'm trying preclude anyone that may have gotten that impression.)

[MadMax]

19 hours ago, Velho said:

Can you help me reconcile that with OBR 5.05(b)(3) below?

Here’s a very rare, but very real situation that incorporates what you’re pointing out. 

Say we have R2-R3. CI occurs, with a blooper, or weak liner that falls close to 2B, pinning R2 to the bag. R3 scampers in to score, and BR arrives at 1B safely. 
By rule, we have to call / acknowledge the CI, because R2 did not advance at least one base. However, the penalty awards actually make the subsequent situation (slightly) worse – R1-R2-R3 vs. R1-R2 with 1 run scored. Again, we still need to call and enforce the CI, but in the amateur game (and likely the pro game, too), you’re basically saying, “You want the Option results, right skip?” 

[orangebird]

Okay the fact that multiple people who have been doing this for more than 2 months are having this kind of conversation about how exactly CI works

1. Makes me feel better about being confused there

2. Makes me think it's a kind of insane question to ask people training to umpire u10/u12 rec ball lol

[MadMax]

16 hours ago, Velho said:

You don't get a choice.

(Not saying anyone said that. I'm trying preclude anyone that may have gotten that impression.)

It’s important to point this out. This is the Number One Reason why the Fed won’t let us have Live Balks. Nothing to do with safety, et. al. It’s their lack of trust in us that we’d create or offer options where there aren’t any. 

[834k3r]

3 hours ago, orangebird said:

Okay the fact that multiple people who have been doing this for more than 2 months are having this kind of conversation about how exactly CI works

1. Makes me feel better about being confused there

2. Makes me think it's a kind of insane question to ask people training to umpire u10/u12 rec ball lol

Welcome to the club, where we all have things to work on and we're always learning.

[Richvee]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

It’s important to point this out. This is the Number One Reason why the Fed won’t let us have Live Balks. Nothing to do with safety, et. al. It’s their lack of trust in us that we’d create or offer options where there aren’t any. 

Umpire classroom 101’s latest quiz is a great example of why it’s dead in FED. How many high school umpires, especially ones who have “made their living” at the subvarsity level, know, or care to learn all nuances of live ball balks? 
I can see their heads spinning and brains short circuiting watching this. 

 

[Velho]

7 hours ago, MadMax said:

On 3/25/2025 at 11:09 AM, Velho said:

Can you help me reconcile that with OBR 5.05(b)(3) below?

Here’s a very rare, but very real situation that incorporates what you’re pointing out. 

@MadMax What I meant to get at was clarifying if you agree that "CI is ignored, and no option given to the offense, if the batter and any runners advance at least 1 base". As the situation that started the conversation for example:

No one on, no outs. CI on a ball put in play. BR advances to 1B and is tagged out trying for 2B for the 1st out.

I read OBR5.05(b)(3) as that play stands and the offense has no option to have BR at 1B with no outs.

Wanted to confirm that's how you see it.

[orangebird]

Anyways we're now at about 48 hours from org 2's test with no confirmation I passed (I think I did lol) or any other information on what's next. To be diplomatic...I'll just say I think they could be a tad more efficient relaying this information.  

[orangebird]

15 hours ago, orangebird said:

Anyways we're now at about 48 hours from org 2's test with no confirmation I passed (I think I did lol) or any other information on what's next. To be diplomatic...I'll just say I think they could be a tad more efficient relaying this information.  

Alright we passed, thank God lmfao 

[The Man in Blue]

So … did you opt for the result of the test or the penalty?  😉

[orangebird]

Alrighty on-field training for org 2 has been completed so I can now say I am a double-certified umpire  🎉

Some of it was pretty repetitive for me (position A/B/C) but they did have us practice getting in position to make the call from position A which org 1 kinda skipped so that was neat.

I did ask if we could get our tests back and got a "maybe" there, hoping the answer is yes both for reviewing and also because I figure y'all would be interested in the exact wording for some of the questions. 

They'll also be doing optional "in-game training" on Wednesday which I signed up for mainly because I'm curious how exactly that'll work, I'd assume it's just a scrimmage but who knows lol

It's nice to know the training is finished and now I can focus on about 2 months worth of getting reps and hoping every game I work doesn't include an appeal at 1st while I'm watching the ball in left-center lol

 

[orangebird]

Gonna need to use the pre-game conference to see if this version of the Yankees will also have the torpedo bats 😅

[BLWizzRanger]

1 hour ago, orangebird said:

Gonna need to use the pre-game conference to see if this version of the Yankees will also have the torpedo bats 😅

Ok, I'll bite...  what is up with the 'International'?

[orangebird]

Just now, BLWizzRanger said:

Ok, I'll bite...  what is up with the 'International'?

Age levels, international is 9-10, no idea what the flagship LL calls that age group   

[Velho]

1 hour ago, orangebird said:

international is 9-10, no idea what the flagship LL calls that age group   

Anything below "Majors" (12U) is under the heading of "Minors". The equivalent to that 9-10 International group would be AAA (sometimes referred to simply as Minors or Farm) though ages up to 12 can participate (though 11s are not uncommon and 12s are rare - and can't pitch).