Batter runner giving himself up?

[Umpiresrock74]

Hello everyone, yesterday I had a little league game where we had a drop third strike, 2 outs, no runner on first. I point as the ball is on the ground, the batter  starts walking towards his dugout, 3rd baseline dugout, before he gets there his team all gets there around him and tells him to run to first base. By then all the fielders are off the field and he runs to first. I hav him out on abandonment. He gave himself up by walking towards the dugout and making no effort to run to first. Mind you these are little league rules, not my strong suit as I don’t do many little league games, thoughts?

[JonnyCat]

In LL, the batter-runner has to enter dead ball territory in order to be called out in this situation. He can run to 1B anytime before entering the dugout or any other dead ball territory.

See 6.05(b) A.R. in the LL Rules Instruction Manual.

[Umpiresrock74]

Just now, JonnyCat said:

In LL, the batter-runner has to enter dead ball territory in order to be called out in this situation. He can run to 1B anytime before entering the dugout or any other dead ball territory.

See 6.05(b) A.R. in the LL Rules Instruction Manual.

Okay. Awesome.

[Coach Carl]

This approved ruling also appears in the Little League rulebook.  

[Richvee]

5 hours ago, Umpiresrock74 said:

Hello everyone, yesterday I had a little league game where we had a drop third strike, 2 outs, no runner on first. I point as the ball is on the ground, the batter  starts walking towards his dugout, 3rd baseline dugout, before he gets there his team all gets there around him and tells him to run to first base. By then all the fielders are off the field and he runs to first. I hav him out on abandonment. He gave himself up by walking towards the dugout and making no effort to run to first. Mind you these are little league rules, not my strong suit as I don’t do many little league games, thoughts?

For reference

FED, LL - dead ball territory

NCAA, OBR - Dirt circle

[Coach Carl]

Another note for youth rec leagues:  Cal Ripken/Babe Ruth and Pony follow OBR unless an exception is written.  LL has based their rules on OBR and maintains them without referencing a clause such as "follow OBR unless noted".  All this to say, I think in Pony and CR/BR you'd follow the dirt circle standard.  I searched their rules and couldn't find any note of keeping the old "dugout or dead ball territory" standard that LL still follows.

[JSam21]

On 12/6/2024 at 1:00 PM, Richvee said:

For reference

FED, LL - dead ball territory

NCAA, OBR - Dirt circle

I think there is an important point of clarification for NFHS. They have until they enter dead ball territory or the infielders cross the foul lines to begin their advance to first. 

[JSam21]

On 12/6/2024 at 9:34 AM, JonnyCat said:

In LL, the batter-runner has to enter dead ball territory in order to be called out in this situation. He can run to 1B anytime before entering the dugout or any other dead ball territory.

See 6.05(b) A.R. in the LL Rules Instruction Manual.

Does LL have anything about the infielders crossing the foul lines? 

[834k3r]

5 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

Does LL have anything about the infielders crossing the foul lines? 

Neither the LL rule (6.05(b) as @JonnyCat said about the RIM) nor the A.R. mention anything about the infielders or defense aside from how to put out the BR.

[JSam21]

1 minute ago, 834k3r said:

Neither the LL rule (6.05(b) as @JonnyCat said about the RIM) nor the A.R. mention anything about the infielders or defense aside from how to put out the BR.

Well then, that leaves an interesting loophole to extend innings. Just head towards your dugout door and hope the defense doesn't realize you aren't out yet, then once they enter the dugout run free.

 

[BLWizzRanger]

So is this one rule that needs updated to a more current interpretation?  Where the boundary should be the circle around the plate?  I figure it was the dugout or dead ball territory since, more often or not, the lower level of baseball are on all dirt fields and the DBT is a definitive line. Maybe you can't do that for 13U and below since dirt fields are much more common but maybe Fed, it should be updated?  I could vote for that....

[Richvee]

7 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

So is this one rule that needs updated to a more current interpretation?  Where the boundary should be the circle around the plate?  I figure it was the dugout or dead ball territory since, more often or not, the lower level of baseball are on all dirt fields and the DBT is a definitive line. Maybe you can't do that for 13U and below since dirt fields are much more common but maybe Fed, it should be updated?  I could vote for that....

Dirt fields shouldn’t be a reason not to change this. Just like FED words the balk rule to say “ take a position within approximately 5 feet of the pitching rubber without the ball”  because all fields do not have a dirt mound. The same should be done for an uncaught 3rd K. Something like “the batter is out once he is approximately 10 feet from home plate and hasn’t attempted to advance. “

[834k3r]

21 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

So is this one rule that needs updated to a more current interpretation?  Where the boundary should be the circle around the plate?  I figure it was the dugout or dead ball territory since, more often or not, the lower level of baseball are on all dirt fields and the DBT is a definitive line. Maybe you can't do that for 13U and below since dirt fields are much more common but maybe Fed, it should be updated?  I could vote for that....

I'd support that, but if we're judging how appropriate a rule application would be to a certain level based on the existence of a "dirt circle," I think NFHS would have to ensure all fields are up to the same specs or provide alternates to the rule. Personally, I think (but you'd probably know better than I) NFHS has zero desire--and even less authority--to enter into the field requirements game vis a vis MLB and their mandates for MiLB stadiums.

I had three NFHS games (two different schools) last year where the entire infield was dirt. If NFHS implemented the HP cutout as described, they'd have to come up with alternatives for those sorts of fields (rural areas).

Edit:  yes, I wrote this before reading Rich's response.

Edited December 10, 2024 by 834k3r

[ousafe]

Same situation as OP, also LL. The coach stood in the dugout doorway, telling the kid to run. Kid refused (was embarrassed about striking out) and tried to sidestep the coach, who blocked him with his hand. NOW I have an out!  Coach INT.  We chuckled a bit.

[johnnyg08]

On 12/10/2024 at 9:59 AM, 834k3r said:

I had three NFHS games (two different schools) last year where the entire infield was dirt. If NFHS implemented the HP cutout as described, they'd have to come up with alternatives for those sorts of fields (rural areas).

We have a lot of fields around us that are all skin. 

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

We have a lot of fields around us that are all skin. 

If they can line the batter's box and foul lines, they can put a 9' arc around home.

[834k3r]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

If they can line the batter's box and foul lines, they can put a 9' arc around home.

[johnnyg08]

13 hours ago, noumpere said:

If they can line the batter's box and foul lines, they can put a 9' arc around home.

 

 

[Replacematt]

On 1/8/2025 at 9:56 PM, johnnyg08 said:

We have a lot of fields around us that are all skin. 

Skin or no skin?

Is a skinned infield similar to a painted wall, in which paint is put on? Or is it similar to a peeled apple, in which the peel is removed?

The things that keep me up at night...