Third strike

[BlackhatFF]

9u usssa baseball rules question from a scrimmage

Kid swings normal with two strikes already for a third strike. Ball is well over the hitter and catchers head and the catcher does not get a glove on it at all for “dropped” third strike. Dead ball strike three or still a live ball hitter can try to advance to first? 
 

They are 9 and I don’t feel as if it was a malicious attempt to get on base. No outs with a runner on third. 

[Velho]

36 minutes ago, BlackhatFF said:

Kid swings normal with two strikes already for a third strike. Ball is well over the hitter and catchers head and the catcher does not get a glove on it at all for “dropped” third strike. Dead ball strike three or still a live ball hitter can try to advance to first? 

That's a live ball.

Understandable confusion with the popular but incorrect "dropped third strike" vernacular. The rulebook refers to it as an "uncaught third strike" to avoid this confusion.

 

[beerguy55]

42 minutes ago, BlackhatFF said:

9u usssa baseball rules question from a scrimmage

Kid swings normal with two strikes already for a third strike. Ball is well over the hitter and catchers head and the catcher does not get a glove on it at all for “dropped” third strike. Dead ball strike three or still a live ball hitter can try to advance to first? 
 

They are 9 and I don’t feel as if it was a malicious attempt to get on base. No outs with a runner on third. 

First - it's more accurately called "uncaught" third strike...there is no requirement for it to hit the catcher in any way, and yes, a savvy batter can swing at a third strike that is six feet outside, or ten feet high, to attempt to advance to first - it is allowed, as far as I know, at all levels, to do this intentionally.

 

Second - wtf are they doing uncaught third strike at that age?!? Just a travesty.  At this age the majority of third strikes won't be caught...even ones right down the pipe.  That's  not baseball and this should be delayed until 12U.   The league administrators should be shot and pissed on.

 

[love to ump]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

, and yes, a savvy batter can swing at a third strike that is six feet outside, or ten feet high, to attempt to advance to first - it is allowed, as far as I know, at all levels, to do this intentionally.

not trying to change topic...but got to disagree....a swing in not always a strike, because it has to be an offer to hit the pitch...had it come up in a U13 game, where the "savvy" batter swings over the plate at a pitch that is behind him.

[beerguy55]

47 minutes ago, love to ump said:

not trying to change topic...but got to disagree....a swing in not always a strike, because it has to be an offer to hit the pitch...had it come up in a U13 game, where the "savvy" batter swings over the plate at a pitch that is behind him.

A pitch that is behind the batter cannot be hit - much different scenario...you can't wait for a pitch to pass you, the catcher and the umpire to decide to swing...at some point it's no longer a pitch (though the rules may not support you here, in defining when a pitch or pitched ball stops being such).   The opposite way to look at it is you're overstepping in a situation where the batter may just be really bad and swinging really late.

A pitch that is above or away from the plate, but not yet past it, is still a pitch, no matter how bad, meaning it can be swung at and batted - it may mean throwing the bat to hit it (or not hit it), or it may mean the batter's eyesight sucks, or it just may mean they're bad at baseball, but it doesn't mean it's not a swing.

Then it's up to you to decide if the swing is an attempt to hit the pitch - and very few umpires will not rule it a swing...

You want to pick up the SH*#ty end of the stick on that judgment where F2 ends up either miraculously catching the pitch...or getting it fast on the rebound from the backstop in plenty of time to throw the batter out?   Likewise, are you going to decide it IS a swing when the batter screws up and forgets that first is occupied?   You going to start judging no swing on the plays where the batter swings/misses on purpose on steal plays?

See the joke swing that happened in NCAA a few years back on a ball that rolled about 20 feet from the plate, that became strike three.

 

[love to ump]

My description of "behind" him was poorly worded.. pitch was still coming to plate, going to pass behind him...you have to just Umpire...can't allow someone to make a travesty of the rules.

Yes, have seen the NCAA clip, and most will agree the Ump blew the call.

[Velho]

22 minutes ago, love to ump said:

Yes, have seen the NCAA clip, and most will agree the Ump blew the call.

That one the batter obviously had no intent (imo).

That said, I don't see a batter wanting a strike against him as a travesty - but can understand the viewpoint that does.

*  Intentionally swing at a wild pitch to advance on U3K has obvious benefit. Even to keep an at bat alive is valid gamesmanship imo.

[BLarson]

Here in Omaha...most all select/travel baseball games are regular USSSA baseball rule games starting at 9U.

7U/8U there are different rules...no IFF, no U3K, home is closed, no leading off etc...

Even in fall ball it's typically that way...the worst case is when they play regular rules and don't have a max run limit per inning.

[Velho]

2 hours ago, BLarson said:

Here in Omaha...most all select/travel baseball games are regular USSSA baseball rule games starting at 9U.

That's unfortunate.

2 hours ago, BLarson said:

7U/8U there are different rules...no IFF, no U3K, home is closed, no leading off etc...

Interesting. They have the good sense there but not at 9U. I wonder why they cut it off there.

2 hours ago, BLarson said:

the worst case is when they play regular rules and don't have a max run limit per inning.

Amen brother. I hear you not that one.

[beerguy55]

17 hours ago, love to ump said:

My description of "behind" him was poorly worded.

No, it was properly worded...it was poorly interpreted.

[834k3r]

22 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

wtf are they doing uncaught third strike at that age?!?

My thought exactly.

[beerguy55]

18 hours ago, BLarson said:

Even in fall ball it's typically that way...the worst case is when they play regular rules and don't have a max run limit per inning.

oh gawd - believe me, it's no more fun coaching than it is umpiring that goat show.

[love to ump]

drives me nuts when coaches are more concerned about the kid running on U3K that them actually trying to hit the ball!!

[Kais]

Our local league, 9U, no leadoff, no leaving base until ball is touched or goes past catcher, no U3K, and, thankfully, 5 runs per side at bat limit. Also, we tell the coaches at the pre-game meeting, "strike zone will be generous, but not ridiculous." Helps make the games go along much better.  At 10U, full on baseball rules. It's always fun, though, to watch the circus come to town on the uncaught 3K when 1B is occupied with less than 2 outs. Actually, it's hysterical from my point of view!

[BigBlue4u]

43 minutes ago, Kais said:

Also, we tell the coaches at the pre-game meeting, "strike zone will be generous, but not ridiculous."

I've never heard a strike zone described that way.  But, I like it!  👍

[The Man in Blue]

14 hours ago, Kais said:

 Also, we tell the coaches at the pre-game meeting, "strike zone will be generous, but not ridiculous." Helps make the games go along much better. 

 

Can I make an addition there?   

Also, we tell the coaches at the pre-game meeting, "strike zone will be generous, but not ridiculous, and your coaching should be the same." Helps make the games go along much better. 

[Kais]

On 9/6/2024 at 11:11 PM, BigBlue4u said:

I've never heard a strike zone described that way.  But, I like it!  👍

For the 9U, and it's their first time pitching, it's the way to go. Strikes give pitchers confidence.

[Kais]

On 9/7/2024 at 12:53 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 

Can I make an addition there?   

Also, we tell the coaches at the pre-game meeting, "strike zone will be generous, but not ridiculous, and your coaching should be the same." Helps make the games go along much better. 

Yep. Like that.

[beerguy55]

17 hours ago, Kais said:

For the 9U, and it's their first time pitching, it's the way to go. Strikes give pitchers confidence.

Yes!   AND you want to encourage the kids to be hitting.  Coaches who encourage nine-year olds to look for the walk should never be allowed to coach again...or be near children...or reproduce.

[cjroman]

On 9/4/2024 at 12:44 PM, beerguy55 said:

 

Second - wtf are they doing uncaught third strike at that age?!? Just a travesty.  At this age the majority of third strikes won't be caught...even ones right down the pipe.  That's  not baseball and this should be delayed until 12U.   The league administrators should be shot and pissed on.

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

Obviously, a 9U zone is not a collegiate zone, or so I'm told...and nor should it be. But, the umpire's mentality throughout the amateur game is the same. Whatever your zone is...HUNT STRIKES. Be a pitcher's umpire. Every legally delivered pitch is a strike when it leaves the pitcher's hand...until it is not. Strikes move the game along. Strikes lead to batters swinging. Swings lead to more strikes and the all important outs. It's not a race. We're certainly not looking to cheat anyone. We are caretakers of The Game. Strikes and outs gets everyone...including 9U parents home.

If you work the plate and your games seem slow and draggy and or action-less and boring, especially for the young players...open up your zone. Don't get crazy. Open up your zone. Just a whole ball all the way around could help things along nicely. If you are unsure, discuss it with your partner between innings.

~Dawg

[Velho]

51 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

9U zone is not a collegiate zone

Gross size it's pretty close. 😉

[love to ump]

Great advice from DAWG....and it even works in higher age groups...be consistent, and coaches catch on pretty quick that you are hunting strikes....helps if you have a good partner, who reinforces that with the base coaches. Get the bats swinging becomes everybody's goal.

[Velho]

9 hours ago, love to ump said:

Get the bats swinging becomes everybody's goal.

It being fall ball with our local practice is new pitcher every 1/2 innings you get into kids who are very much trying to figure it out (which is fine, that's the point) so on Saturday I was talking to the batters "look to swing" - letting them know that if this guy somehow finds the zip code of the plate, it'll be a strike.