Question on a Balk Call or lack of

[LDS]

Pitcher in the stretch position is in the process of coming set.  Once the ball and hands come together this pitcher has all kinds of movement before he finally comes to a complete pause.  Question is, in the process of all the movement before coming to the actual pause, if one of the movements is turning his left shoulder towards first base is this a balk?  Even if he hasn't stopped movement to become set yet?  I had this happen in a game.  I wasn't sure so I didn't call it a balk and nobody complained.  It was a right handed pitcher and he didn't do it every time.  He moved all over the place every time before the final pause but turning his left shoulder to first base wasn't done every time.  After game I asked other umpires and half of them said they would call it a balk and the other half would not.  I want to get this correct next time and I know I can get the correct answer on this forum.

[Kevin_K]

Until the pitcher comes set, his body is in motion. He is supposed to come set without interruption and in one continuous motion. There is a lot of wiggle room in how that interpreted, include strange gyrations, shoulder turning, head bobbing, and other peculiarities.

This is a case where it might be best to use the rules to solve problems - "No Ernie, he can do that. He hasn't come set" - rather than cause problems - "That's a balk. His motion was interrupted and not one continuous motion"

 

[noumpere]

FED:  turning the shoulders after bringing the hands together during or after the stretch is a balk.  6-1-1

[LDS]

Is OBR and FED different when it comes to this rule?

[noumpere]

OBR just has "feint to first."  The interp of that varies with how much the shoulders turn, how fast they turn, and when in the pitching routine it happens (and by umpire / level, of course).

[MadMax]

On 7/28/2024 at 5:42 PM, LDS said:

Is OBR and FED different when it comes to this rule?

 

On 7/28/2024 at 8:46 PM, noumpere said:

The interp of that varies… (and by umpire / level, of course).

Swell. Yet another instance of “same kids are playing it (the game), might be the same umpires calling it, but it depends on who/what underwrites it”. 

Maddening. 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

 

Swell. Yet another instance of “same kids are playing it (the game), might be the same umpires calling it, but it depends on who/what underwrites it”. 

Maddening. 

Same as all judgment calls -- checked swing, BI, OBS, out of the basepath, etc.  And, it happens in all sports.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

Same as all judgment calls -- checked swing, BI, OBS, out of the basepath, etc.  And, it happens in all sports.

I don't think that's Max's point. It's specifically the shoulder turn after the hands are together and before he is set. 

 Johnny's pitching and I'm behind the plate in a Babe Ruth tourny. (OBR) Johnny brings his hands together and turns his shoulders while "stretching" before coming to a stop. ---Nothing

Next week I've got Johnny on the mound again in a PBR tourney, Governed by straight FED rules. Johnny does the same stretch to a set. I balk it. ---Maddening 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

 Johnny's pitching and I'm behind the plate in a Babe Ruth tourny. (OBR) Johnny brings his hands together and turns his shoulders while "stretching" before coming to a stop. ---Nothing

Next week I've got Johnny on the mound again in a PBR tourney, Governed by straight FED rules. Johnny does the same stretch to a set. I balk it. ---Maddening 

Especially for trivial crap. You want to differentiate FPSR and Bona Fide for safety differentiating Professional and Amateur - fine, there is logic to that*. But this kind of thing? Just making life hard for no reason.

 

* Why exactly is LL Bona Fide? 🤦‍♂️

[Mudisfun]

On 7/30/2024 at 11:03 AM, Velho said:

* Why exactly is LL Bona Fide? 🤦‍♂️

I don't recall LL having a slide rule, other than slide or avoid. 

 

7.08 - Any runner is out when:

(a)(3) the runner ford not slide or attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make the tag, or (4) LL Majors and below, only, the runner slides head first while advancing - (approved ruling: there is no 'must slide rule').  

I cannot locate anything in the book which defines what is a slide, a legal or illegal slide. There is nothing in rule 2.

[Jimurray]

57 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

I don't recall LL having a slide rule, other than slide or avoid. 

 

7.08 - Any runner is out when:

(a)(3) the runner ford not slide or attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make the tag, or (4) LL Majors and below, only, the runner slides head first while advancing - (approved ruling: there is no 'must slide rule').  

I cannot locate anything in the book which defines what is a slide, a legal or illegal slide. There is nothing in rule 2.

 

On 7/30/2024 at 1:03 PM, Velho said:

Especially for trivial crap. You want to differentiate FPSR and Bona Fide for safety differentiating Professional and Amateur - fine, there is logic to that*. But this kind of thing? Just making life hard for no reason.

 

* Why exactly is LL Bona Fide? 🤦‍♂️

A retired runner in LL is covered by the retired runner INT rule where by the act of running or sliding into 2B is not by that act alone interference if it is normal base running. We use the MLBUM definition of a bona fide slide to consider it normal base running. That definition existed long before MLB revised the slide rule but MLB umpires did not enforce it. 

[Velho]

5 hours ago, Mudisfun said:

I cannot locate anything in the book which defines what is a slide, a legal or illegal slide. There is nothing in rule 2.

Yeah, which is why (as @Jimurray said) we have to look to OBR. I'd rather go with FPSR but it's simply not in the rulebook.