Lazy kids, passive coaches

[The Man in Blue]

On 7/20/2024 at 3:46 PM, Richvee said:

And what does this inevitably lead to?  A 💩show. 
Umpire -“Time, that’s  a ball, you took more than 20 seconds. 
 Coach- “are you kidding me? Their pitcher has been taking twice as long all game and you didn’t say a thing no we’re counting?”  

Yes, it needs to be mandated with timers and specific rules for every situation… like step offs/pickoffs/batters time out requests, defensive time outs, conferences etc. 

Without specific enforcement rules for every situation, you’ll have umpires arbitrarily enforcing 20 second violations and it’s not going to speed up anything, because there’s going to be at least a heated discussion every time it’s randomly applied. 

I get what you are saying — visible enforcement is comfortable enforcement, and comfortable enforcement is consistent enforcement.

I can’t help it if nobody else is doing it.  We frequently complain about hearing the “nobody called it all year!” defense … so why are we trying to use it ourselves?  The rule is in the rulebook.  Use it.

NFHS’s stance (or my interp of their interp) is that using the rule is not meant to be punitive, but to control the flow of the game.  As I said in my previous post, we aren’t jumping on every pitch on every pitcher, we are using this tool to get things back on track.

Am I just calling “TIME!  That’s a ball!” arbitrarily?  No.  Like many do with balks, I’m giving some lead up warning.  But I am not afraid to break out the assessed penalty when that is ignored.

 

How many of you remind the batter to keep one foot in the box EVERY TIME?  How many of you do it when it becomes problematic?  How many never do it?

 

 

[Thatsnotyou]

5 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Gotta’ say … I’m a bit baffled here.  I can oversimplify and overcomplicate with the best of them … but why are you so adverse to enforcing rules?

MLB chose to not enforce their rule.  That doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.  They have modified it and sank money into making it visible.

NFHS has chosen to offer an interp saying “don’t be a stickler, but use your tools.”  That doesn’t mean the rule doesn’t exist.  You are choosing not to enforce them.  If you aren’t going to bother, why would we bother with the rest of your wish list?

You don’t need any of that.  You need your rulebook, your uniform, and the ability to count to twenty in a reasonably close to one-beat-per-second timing.  You can use your fingers if you like.

One Mississippi, two Mississippi …

Stayin’ alive, stayin’ alive …

One one thousand, two one thousand …

Practice counting against the clock …

Learn 20 seconds of your favorite song … 

 

We aren’t talking about jumping on little Freddy Fastball for starting at 21 seconds instead of 20 seconds.  If that was the case, we would have a clock like the pros do.  We are talking about professionally keeping your amateur game moving.  

If Paul Pro-Prospect, Jr. passes 20 seconds every now and then, not a big deal.  If he’s taking 25-30 every time, we have an issue.

If the defense takes 62 seconds to get out and throw down, no big deal.  If at 70 seconds the catcher is still getting dressed and the King of the Hill coaching staff is still reliving that play from 1977 …  problem.  Penalize.

This isn’t about being punitive.  It is about being practical.

Is my area the only area that knows how to handle pace of play?  No.  I will say we have many umpires who don’t.  That doesn’t mean those of us who do should stop.  No, we don’t use stopwatches, but I have seen guys using their belt timers.  
 

As for other areas … Paging @MadMax … MadMax please pick up the yellow phone.

I can assure you I’m quite good at enforcing rules when necessary and practical, but thanks for the advice from your neck of the woods, the pace of play kingdom. 
 

But again, we need NFHS to go the college and pro route and break out a clock between innings to accomplish sweeping change. There is a reason they went to it even with enforceable rules on the books.

[The Man in Blue]

We don't need them to.  You want them to.  Whatever your motivation is, it isn't a need, it is a want.

It's like I told a coach this weekend, "I'm an umpire, not a genie.  I call what is written, I don't grant wishes."  

Do you know why MLB added the "sweeping reforms" they did?  They made it visible to signal to the fans that they were doing something to address fan concerns and to bring people back to the game.  It was about keeping entertainment eyes on the game, not about actually playing the game.  If they had not posted clocks in prominent view, fans would never have known the enforcement was happening.  Fans would still think games were 3 1/2 hours long regardless of the reality.

Adding the clocks is on the same line as giving umpires a microphone to announce what just happened on a replay review.  It isn't necessary to the game, but it is a good idea as it engages the viewer a hell of a lot more.

[BigBlue4u]

On 7/19/2024 at 10:38 AM, Richvee said:

  Casually walk around him so he turns to face the stands. Let the stands see who's escalating the discussion into a rant/argument, ect. 

The only problem is an animated coach quite likely will get his team's fans into it.

[BrainFreeze]

10 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

How many of you remind the batter to keep one foot in the box EVERY TIME?  How many of you do it when it becomes problematic?  How many never do it?

 

 

The one single phrase I've used more than any this season, "Batter, in the box, please."

Surprisingly effective and highly recommended.

 

[Kevin_K]

8 hours ago, BrainFreeze said:

The one single phrase I've used more than any this season, "Batter, in the box, please."

Surprisingly effective and highly recommended.

 

Pair it with a sweeping motion of your arm on the batter's side so everyone can see what you are saying. 

[Richvee]

12 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

The only problem is an animated coach quite likely will get his team's fans into it.

And every cell phone video of the altercation shows exactly who escalated and earned his ejection. If all his fans just see his back when I run him, they have no idea what was happening. That will rile them up even more.   

[The Man in Blue]

21 minutes ago, Richvee said:

And every cell phone video of the altercation shows exactly who escalated and earned his ejection. If all his fans just see his back when I run him, they have no idea what was happening. That will rile them up even more.   

 

Does video even really matter in this post-fact, post-truth world?  

 

Sorry, just being a nihilist.  

[Thatsnotyou]

On 7/22/2024 at 10:55 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 

Do you know why MLB added the "sweeping reforms" they did?  They made it visible to signal to the fans that they were doing something to address fan concerns and to bring people back to the game.  It was about keeping entertainment eyes on the game, not about actually playing the game.  If they had not posted clocks in prominent view, fans would never have known the enforcement was happening.  Fans would still think games were 3 1/2 hours long regardless of the reality.

 

This isn't true. Length of games were too long and everyone knew it and tangible, impactful change was needed. The only way to change it was by introducing a clock and enforcing it, whether it was visible to the fans or not. Most people can figure out the difference between a 2.5 hour game with pace and a 3.5-4 hour game with no pace, regardless of if they can see a pitch clock somewhere. It's extremely noticeable. The game moves now, and it's apparent to even to those that don't pay that much attention to the changes and the rules and the clock. 

 

You're going to lose umpries, quietly, the more they have to deal with slow pace, walking around, 2.5 hour freshman games, and teams showing up late. Or they'll just choose a different sport that has a clock. So if you'd like to treat this as a fans = umpires scenario to get a clock in, by all means go ahead.

[834k3r]

3 hours ago, Thatsnotyou said:

You're going to lose umpries, quietly, the more they have to deal with slow pace, walking around, 2.5 hour freshman games, and teams showing up late. Or they'll just choose a different sport that has a clock. So if you'd like to treat this as a fans = umpires scenario to get a clock in, by all means go ahead.

This probably OT, but I disagree with you here. You're going to lose umpires by having them verbally abused and denigrated; long games are unfortunate, but they're not going to drive away umpires in large numbers.

[Richvee]

37 minutes ago, 834k3r said:

long games are unfortunate, but they're not going to drive away umpires in large numbers.

They don't help. I hear more than my fair share of multi sport officials who still do some baseball say they are doing less and less baseball. Primarily because of time. That said, I'm not sure adding a clock to high school would have an immediate impact on umpire numbers. Could possibly even cause a negative affect due to guys who think they have enough on their plate without adding a timer to their job. ( these are not my opinions on the use of a clock, just opinions I've heard from others.)

[The Man in Blue]

Are we talking about a pitch clock or are we talking about time limits?  Two very different things.

Enforce the pitch clock when needed.  Enforce the time between innings.  Keep the batter in the box.  Period.  This will shorten your game times.

I will agree that pace of games is a factor in losing umpires.  My area has 2:00 (no new inning) time limits on everything sub-varsity, including junior high/middle school.  Umpires turning back games and working events that they (a) could get to without rushing or taking time off work, and (b) knew what time they would be done (e.g., HS volleyball over MS BB/SB).  Umpires turning back games or not working JH/MS/Sub-V for low pay were specifically cited as the reason why.  (Note: they didn't address the pay issue.)

If an umpire cannot manage the game and keep their game times down, that is on them.

[Richvee]

2 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

Are we talking about a pitch clock or are we talking about time limits?

 

I was referring to in game clock. 

[rineanika0]

On 7/23/2024 at 7:44 AM, BrainFreeze said:

The one single phrase I've used more than any this season, "Batter, in the box, please."

Surprisingly effective and highly recommended.

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[BigBlue4u]

On 7/22/2024 at 8:55 PM, The Man in Blue said:

It's like I told a coach this weekend, "I'm an umpire, not a genie.  I call what is written, I don't grant wishes."

Great line!!  🙂

 

[johnnyg08]

On 7/20/2024 at 3:46 PM, Richvee said:

And what does this inevitably lead to?  A 💩show. 
Umpire -“Time, that’s  a ball, you took more than 20 seconds. 
 Coach- “are you kidding me? Their pitcher has been taking twice as long all game and you didn’t say a thing no we’re counting?”  

Yes, it needs to be mandated with timers and specific rules for every situation… like step offs/pickoffs/batters time out requests, defensive time outs, conferences etc. 

Without specific enforcement rules for every situation, you’ll have umpires arbitrarily enforcing 20 second violations and it’s not going to speed up anything, because there’s going to be at least a heated discussion every time it’s randomly applied. 

I promise, if I have to carry a timer on the field of a high school game, I will retire from umpiring. 

[johnnyg08]

On 7/24/2024 at 7:11 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Enforce the pitch clock when needed.  Enforce the time between innings.  Keep the batter in the box.  Period. 

Yep, and stop granting the batter time for literally no reason. 

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

I promise, if I have to carry a timer on the field of a high school game, I will retire from umpiring. 

I am the… type … of wisea$$ who will, and indeed wants to, get a digital clock (battery operated, of course) the size of a boombox, and I will volunteer to stand out at B (or C), with said “boom-clock” over my head… 

… like John Cusack in Say Anything* … 

… just to prove to all participants – coaches, players, my PU partner – and assembled witnesses that yes, this game’s actions (pitching, batter being ready, coach meetings (yes, these should be timed!! Oh 🤬 yes!!!), time between innings) should and will be timed, and unilaterally adjudged! 
I don’t need no dicey-pricey RefTimer. 

2 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Yep, and stop granting the batter time for literally no reason.

Insert: figuratively, physically, metaphysically, virtually, theoretically… ad nauseum. 

Too many amateur umpires lack the spine (fortitude) or conviction to deal with this in the most succinct way possible. They embark on discussions, trying to justify why they’re “issuing this edict”. My ol’ housemate and fellow Vulture @KenBAZ is/was a master of enforcing the stay in/near the box thing. He’d cut coaches off at the knees, by saying just loud enough, while pointing right at the offending batter’s feet and the box, “Rules -based! Stay in the box!” 

——— 

* - Of course, @concertman1971 and @834k3r, we might have to find a more… baseball-related song than “In Your Eyes”. 

[johnnyg08]

14 minutes ago, MadMax said:

I am the… type … of wisea$$ who will, and indeed wants to, get a digital clock (battery operated, of course) the size of a boombox, and I will volunteer to stand out at B (or C), with said “boom-clock” over my head… 

[noumpere]

4 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I promise, if I have to carry a timer on the field of a high school game, I will retire from umpiring. 

So,,, a timer would improve the game in two different ways?

 

[834k3r]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

I am the… type … of wisea$$ who will, and indeed wants to, get a digital clock (battery operated, of course) the size of a boombox, and I will volunteer to stand out at B (or C), with said “boom-clock” over my head… 

… like John Cusack in Say Anything* … 

——— 

* - Of course, @concertman1971 and @834k3r, we might have to find a more… baseball-related song than “In Your Eyes”. 

Live look at @MadMax:

P.S. Dang it! @johnnyg08 beat me to it!

[Thatsnotyou]

Batter: “Time”

Me, unless the pitcher has held it while set forever: “No”

Once you start the “time” game, it’s hard to stop it. The gamesmanship element of “time” is garbage. The longer I’ve done this, the more comfortable I’ve become at saying no.