R2 and R3, less than 2 outs, 2-man

[SeeingEyeDog]

Batter hits a ball down the 1B/RF line. Within the past month, I have heard discussed two different mechanics on this play both of which have their own merits but, I want to hear from you first, brothers...how is the crew taking this play? What are each umpire's responsibilities, what are the verbalizations and what are the movements? Every bit of detail and comment you wish, please. I'll share the two methods I learned that are in conflict after we have had some answers come in on this...

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

What do we have happening?  Hits what down the first base line: Fly ball to be caught?  Line drive problem?  Ground ball?

[SH0102]

HPU has fair/foul, if it’s in the air, I’m declaring “I’m on the line” and will either be 1st base like extended if it’s shallow or within dirt circle on 1B line if it’s deeper, judge fair/foul immediately, if caught, get tag of r3 after ensuring catch is complete (hole in 2 man), rule on any play at the plate.

BU has tag of r2, plays at all bases, every touch except at third base.

If it is r3 only and not my catch, I’ll try to help with tag of r3

[noumpere]

16 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

HPU has fair/foul, if it’s in the air, I’m declaring “I’m on the line” and will either be 1st base like extended if it’s shallow or within dirt circle on 1B line if it’s deeper, judge fair/foul immediately, if caught, get tag of r3 after ensuring catch is complete (hole in 2 man), rule on any play at the plate.

BU has tag of r2, plays at all bases, every touch except at third base.

If it is r3 only and not my catch, I’ll try to help with tag of r3

Agreed.  Can help with a peek at R3 before the ball is caught even with R2/R3.

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, SH0102 said:

 

If it is r3 only and not my catch, I’ll try to help with tag of r3

Isn’t that your tag?  PU lines up 3B and catch as far as practicable and then goes home for play. 

[TheLovejoy]

6 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Isn’t that your tag?  PU lines up 3B and catch as far as practicable and then goes home for play. 

Doesn't that just mean as far back on 1st base line extended as possible because you have to watch fair foul?

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, TheLovejoy said:

Doesn't that just mean as far back on 1st base line extended as possible because you have to watch fair foul?

I was asking thinking that @SH0102 was referring to him being the PU with a ball in the V. Rereading his post he refers to PU mechanics and then switches to BU mechanics where BU helps backup the R3 tag. 
But back to PU with 1B line responsibility, PU goes up the line as far as possible to call fair/foul and catch and turns head to check R3 and then goes back home. BU backing up that tag up when able is a good idea. 

[Kevin_K]

Remember the priorities we have:

• Fair/Foul
• Catch/No catch
• Tag/no tag

PU should stay on the line and let his partner know that he has the line. While PU typically has the tag at 3B, the priority is elsewhere on a fly ball down the 1B line. If the play is up the line some, PU needs to get some distance from HP to make sure he has a good look at the play. PU can grab a peek at R3 after the ball is touched if it's possible. If there is a potential for a play at HP, PU needs to get back to the plate.

BU should shift priorities when his partner is pinned on the line. Some BUs will drift (?) toward the baseline between 2B and 3B in order to get eyes on both runners when the ball is touched by a fielder. Some BUs will peek at 3B a split second after the ball is touched. Knowing the situation and communicating what you are doing is critical for not only the PU, but the BU as well.

If there is an appeal play, both umpires should make eye contact with one another and if one is certain about the situation they should communicate it first by signaling their partner with something like a chest tap as if saying "This is mine!" If there is no certainty, PU has the call and if things go sideways, the crew should get together to offer whatever information they have.

 

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

Ok, so I've stirred up some good conversation...

The way I was trained and re-trained last summer at a college camp to run this play is PU drops back 1B extended. PU has fair/foul and potentially catch/no-catch here. We want to verbalize, "I have the line!" which is also umpire-speak for, "The rotation is off!" By dropping back 1B extended this gives us the best look at the tag up at 3B if it's a fair ball.

But, then I worked with a very senior guy who said PU should not drop back 1B extended on this because we lose credibility on fair/foul and catch/no-catch especially if the ball is hit deep. He said PU should come up the 1B line as far as they are comfortable, remember they have to get back and "do the best they can" with the tag up at 3B.

I see merits in both of these approaches...but, I don't like compromising the angle on the 3B tag up, really. Especially if that's a crucial moment in a high leverage game.

~Dawg 

[Jimurray]

14 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Ok, so I've stirred up some good conversation...

The way I was trained and re-trained last summer at a college camp to run this play is PU drops back 1B extended. PU has fair/foul and potentially catch/no-catch here. We want to verbalize, "I have the line!" which is also umpire-speak for, "The rotation is off!" By dropping back 1B extended this gives us the best look at the tag up at 3B if it's a fair ball.

But, then I worked with a very senior guy who said PU should not drop back 1B extended on this because we lose credibility on fair/foul and catch/no-catch especially if the ball is hit deep. He said PU should come up the 1B line as far as they are comfortable, remember they have to get back and "do the best they can" with the tag up at 3B.

I see merits in both of these approaches...but, I don't like compromising the angle on the 3B tag up, really. Especially if that's a crucial moment in a high leverage game.

~Dawg 

The senior guy is correct by CCA 2024. Your camp guys should give you their mechanic and advise that it is "off label" from CCA.

[SeeingEyeDog]

5 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The senior guy is correct by CCA 2024. Your camp guys should give you their mechanic and advise that it is "off label" from CCA.

Can we get a little more context here, please? Why has CCA made that decision to run this play that way?

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Can we get a little more context here, please? Why has CCA made that decision to run this play that way?

~Dawg

That mechanic has been in CCA and MiLBUM for years. I think I learned it at a Jim Evans Desert Classic in 2006. I cited 2024 only to show that it hasn't changed.

[SeeingEyeDog]

6 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That mechanic has been in CCA and MiLBUM for years. I think I learned it at a Jim Evans Desert Classic in 2006. I cited 2024 only to show that it hasn't changed.

Pardon my ignorance...so, they've chosen that mechanic, prioritizing fair/foul and catch/no-catch based on our overall responsibilities list because a tag-up is a play without the ball and further down as @Kevin_K reminded us above?

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Pardon my ignorance...so, they've chosen that mechanic, prioritizing fair/foul and catch/no-catch based on our overall responsibilities list because a tag-up is a play without the ball and further down as @Kevin_K reminded us above?

~Dawg

You might have a backup with the BU on the tag. He can't help you on foul. You need to get the best look at fair/foul.

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

 We want to verbalize, "I have the line!" which is also umpire-speak for, "The rotation is off!"

There's no rotation on this play no matter where the ball is hit.

[Kevin_K]

12 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

The way I was trained and re-trained last summer at a college camp to run this play is PU drops back 1B extended. PU has fair/foul and potentially catch/no-catch here. We want to verbalize, "I have the line!" which is also umpire-speak for, "The rotation is off!" By dropping back 1B extended this gives us the best look at the tag up at 3B if it's a fair ball.

 

Consider the situation where PU has dropped back on 1BLX......

Fly ball is beyond 1B when F4, F3, F9 and BR are all either on the line or converging on the line. PU is potentially looking through F2 and all the above to try to determine whether or not the ball has landed fair or foul. Without moving off the extension, it is likely that his view is, at best, compromised, or, more so, blocked completely. The status of the ball is always the first priority.

If PU moves up the line to a place where his view of the ball is far better, his credibility and accuracy will both be improved significantly.

Our priorities, as I have been taught, are in this order:

1. Fair/foul
2. Catch/No catch
3. Out/safe
4. Everything else

The tag at 3B clearly is less important than the status of the ball. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

9 hours ago, noumpere said:

There's no rotation on this play no matter where the ball is hit.

Thank you...apologies...the situation should be R1 and R3.

~Dawg

[JSam21]

On 4/13/2024 at 8:06 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

Pardon my ignorance...so, they've chosen that mechanic, prioritizing fair/foul and catch/no-catch based on our overall responsibilities list because a tag-up is a play without the ball and further down as @Kevin_K reminded us above?

~Dawg

The most important thing is fair/foul, the next most important thing is catch/no catch. Being in a position of credibility for those is more important than getting the optimal look at the re-touch. This is also why they have given this to the PU in the 3-umpire system with a ball into U3's coverage area. 

[The Short Umpire]

4 hours ago, JSam21 said:

The most important thing is fair/foul, the next most important thing is catch/no catch. Being in a position of credibility for those is more important than getting the optimal look at the re-touch. This is also why they have given this to the PU in the 3-umpire system with a ball into U3's coverage area. 

It’s been repeated a couple time that the fair/foul and catch/no catch are the top priorities so you want the best position for those calls but no one has addressed why this is priority. For one, if the ball falls untouched in fair territory there is no need for R3 to tag up. If the ball is touched fair and dropped then there is also no need to tag up. If the ball is touched foul and dropped then there will be no further action. The only other option is the ball is caught, whether fair or foul and only then will there be a need to rule on the tag at 3rd. 75% of the possible outcomes on that ball will result in the tag-up at 3rd being entirely inconsequential; so to me it’s better to get up the line and make a ruling on the priorities. This is a pitfall of 2-umpire mechanics. You won’t see everything with only two guys so get the most important stuff first. 

[MadMax]

18 hours ago, JSam21 said:

This is also why they have given this to the PU in the 3-umpire system with a ball into U3's coverage area. 

Hang on, there… with R3 Only (U3 in D)? Or, with R1-R3 and R1/2/3 (U3 in C)? 

With the latter two situations, U3 isn’t on the line, so anything F7 to LFL is going to be PU’s anyway, so Fair/Foul and Catch/No-catch are his. A R3 tag is his as well. 

What I suspect you’re hinting at is the former situation… R3 only. Please explain further to address my skepticism. 

[JSam21]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

Hang on, there… with R3 Only (U3 in D)? Or, with R1-R3 and R1/2/3 (U3 in C)? 

With the latter two situations, U3 isn’t on the line, so anything F7 to LFL is going to be PU’s anyway, so Fair/Foul and Catch/No-catch are his. A R3 tag is his as well. 

What I suspect you’re hinting at is the former situation… R3 only. Please explain further to address my skepticism. 

I'm talking about U3 being on the wing. 

[MadMax]

16 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

I'm talking about U3 being on the wing. 

Right. R3 only. Puts U3 at D, U1 at A. 

{ Related, but not relevant: in 4-man, this puts U2 in E (Echo) position } 

Anyway… I have this sinking suspicion that you’re saying U3 is supposed to not go out to a fly ball to left, not go out down the LFL for F/F & Catch/No-catch… that he’s to sink & work the bag & watch the tag of R3. Is that what CCA (and you, by way of reading said… publication) is outlining? 

Or am I misinterpreting?

[JSam21]

23 hours ago, MadMax said:

Right. R3 only. Puts U3 at D, U1 at A. 

{ Related, but not relevant: in 4-man, this puts U2 in E (Echo) position } 

Anyway… I have this sinking suspicion that you’re saying U3 is supposed to not go out to a fly ball to left, not go out down the LFL for F/F & Catch/No-catch… that he’s to sink & work the bag & watch the tag of R3. Is that what CCA (and you, by way of reading said… publication) is outlining? 

Or am I misinterpreting?

They have it outlined as R3 only less than 2 outs. PU has "all fly ball tag up responsibilities on R3". That is a quote from the 2024 CCA Manual. 

 

Here is another quote from the next paragraph. "The rationale behind this is simply that third base umpires are too concerned with lining up the tag of R3 and not taking the adequate amount of time to pause, read, and react and often rushing through or ignoring their initial responsibility which is catch no catch in their coverage area."

With this mechanics change, we are either going out or staying put on the line through the completion of the catch. U1 would immediately come inside and take the BR to 2nd.  

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, JSam21 said:

That is a quote from the 2024 CCA Manual. 

"The rationale behind this is simply that third base umpires are too concerned with lining up the tag of R3 and not taking the adequate amount of time to pause, read, and react and often rushing through or ignoring their initial responsibility which is catch no catch in their coverage area."

With this mechanics change,

Aha! 

So this means that there was the previous directive for U3 to sink, line up, and take tag responsibility… 

… which functions (I can’t, in good conscience, say “works”) in opposition, or counter, to PU conditioning to take all tags of R3 in every other scenario. So I wasn’t just talking out of my arse, or speaking out of turn, or a little boy at the adult’s table, or scoffing at the “Wisdom and Authority” of the CCA Manual when I said, “That’s a stupid mechanic, we (my crew) ain’t doing it.” 

In fairness and decorum, I only said this after politely questioning it, then raising logical objections to it to consider. 🤨 

So, I’ll be pickled… the CCA Manual doesn’t know everything. 

TTWTM would have realized this happens when you get out on the field and actually do it, and then have evaluators use it as a demerit point – a “ding” – if you don’t perform it. 

And this is their way of admitting to it. Maybe we can end the POE on rimming, or at least overcome the reasoning (or rationale) behind it. Hope springs eternal.