Dirty sticks

[BLWizzRanger]

To learn more, what are some of your dirty sticks that you won't touch during a game unless absolutely having to deal with it?  I will start:

1. Illegal bats/gloves. (Brought to my attention by the opposing team)
2. Both (NFHS) catcher's feet outside the box before the pitch is thrown. (pitches getting missed and hammering me or brought to my attention)
3. Players halfway in/out the dugout. (they can't be hanging outside of the dugouts unless it is too many.  But we have dugouts with low walls that they can sit on and hang one leg out of.)
4. Coaches out of the box. (Had a team accuse the 1BC of stealing signs due to him standing two feet from the bag. Otherwise, penalty on them if they interfere.)
5. Jewerly/eyeblack (guess we don't have to worry about that anymore)

What am I missing?

(Trying to be constructive with the above question, but, what got me started on this was the catcher's feet as stated #2 above.  No way was he in the lines (what lines you may ask?).  But when I went to clarify it in the NFHS rule book, the number of feet was only mentioned in the pitching section (6.1.1) and not (1.1.4) where it is mentioned that other fielders only needed one foot in play. If there is a difference, why not say it where feet of players are mentioned to contrast it.)

 

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

To learn more, what are some of your dirty sticks that you won't touch during a game unless absolutely having to deal with it?  I will start:

1. Illegal bats/gloves. (Brought to my attention by the opposing team)
2. Both (NFHS) catcher's feet outside the box before the pitch is thrown. (pitches getting missed and hammering me or brought to my attention)
3. Players halfway in/out the dugout. (they can't be hanging outside of the dugouts unless it is too many.  But we have dugouts with low walls that they can sit on and hang one leg out of.)
4. Coaches out of the box. (Had a team accuse the 1BC of stealing signs due to him standing two feet from the bag. Otherwise, penalty on them if they interfere.)
5. Jewerly/eyeblack (guess we don't have to worry about that anymore)

What am I missing?

Not to diminish your question, @BLWizzRanger, but in a rant like this, the ruleset – and, more importantly, the context matters… big-time. There are things that we can absolutely “let slide” in a men’s amateur league game that cannot be ignored in a sanctioned college game. There are things that I have no need to address in a 16U Perfect Game game – such as catchers wearing a two-piece mask, or what gaudy shapes of eye-black are on their face – but I am compelled to address in a sanctioned Varsity HS game… played by the same kids! 

Hey, let’s examine your list:  

1. Bats – Unfortunately, we gotta get this one. It’s a safety thing. If the event delineates that only “these” bats are acceptable, then that’s what those bats have to be. While you can’t prevent a batter using an illegal bat, if you were made aware of it, and at the very least, ignored its removal, you’d be liable for any harm that bat caused.  I’ve had to invoke illegal bat removals (at least) and penalties (at worst) at all levels of ball I’ve worked. 
   Gloves – this one, I can agree on. Obviously and blatantly white or grey for use by the pitcher? Nope, not happening. But a Mexican flag 🇲🇽 stitched on the back of the glove? Really? We’re going to get that petty? In one example, I had an instance wherein a kid came out of the dugout, expecting to be the (new) F3. Threw a few grounders, and took a few throws… when suddenly, the starting F3 came out to 1B; it seemed that the HC wanted a different F1 afterall. The starting F3’s words to new kid were, “just go to right (field)”. Well, new kid just trots out to the F9 spot, and starts playing catch with F8. So, how many F3 mitts are now on the field?✌🏼, yup. My PU was just about to point the ball Live, and I put him on pause to say, “Hey guys, we need to get this mitt changed!” Contrast that against a men’s local league, wherein one team only has 9 players, and one of their RHT players comes up with a lame right arm. The long-time LHT F3 has to go play F5 (they’ve got no-one else who can do it), and the only glove he’s got is his LHT F3 mitt. So guess what he used, with neither the umpires nor anyone (of importance) on the opposing team making an issue of it? Yup, his F3 mitt. We just called it “Australian Rules Ball”. 😆 
2. Exactly. What box? *looks around for one*
3. For some inexplicable reason, some people subscribe to the notion that keeping guys in the dugout is a mark for/against one’s “game management skills”. I get it, in amateur baseball, it’s a safety thing. Once past that (ie. College), though, it’s morphed into a tribal/sportsmanship thing. And that’s where it gets inexorably grey. I once did a college game, and thought I was absolute nails on it. Everything – B&Ks, mechanics, rotations, pace-of-play, game management – the works… nails. The BU (himself, an “evaluator”) agreed… except he demerited me a “ding” on not noticing and directing an armed and armored campus security guard to fully remain in the dugout. A security guard?? Really?? 
   Those aforementioned adult league games are always crucibles for this, too. These guys are insurance-paying adults. On these local leagues, all these guys know each other, so this becomes more like a round of golf or a curling match (funny how the Scots invented both, huh?) than a high-stakes baseball game. Provided they don’t interfere and/or crowd the HP dirt circle and on-deck spots, I really don’t care. 
4. Again, what box? Most amateur (non-college) fields don’t have BC boxes, and if they do, they’re never exact-to-code. And during a play, barring an official Limitation (Big L), a BC can go anywhere (within reason, short of INT), yes? So do you, aggrieved team, really really want me to limit your own BC’s location and movements because you feel butt-hurt about their BC spying your signs? Cuz as you know, if I Limit one, I must Limit both. 
5. I actually point out the ridiculousness of eyeblack “use”. Gets a good laugh. I have coaches point out the irony – kid will have this intricate eye-black applied, like an Ultimate Raccoon… but still have expensive sunglasses propped atop his ball-cap… on a night game. 

Here’s some gems 💎 (or, turds 💩) I don’t pick up: 

1. Wrist(Belt!) cards. 
2. That F3’s feet positioning matters, and that it should be a Balk call. (Doesn’t, and not going to happen. Ever). 
3. Any mention of sportsmanship at plate meetings 
4. Any directive about how to disagree with a call (they will), request Time (they won’t), and approach an umpire (some do already; some don’t and won’t care regardless) 
5. Size of dugouts (oh, it’s a thing for some umpires) 
6. Calling of “Time” prior to BR arriving to 1B on a BB, ball in possession of F2 or F1, coach / sub coming out already… _everyone_ knows it’s coming. Context-dependent. 
7. On an obvious single, with ball now in possession of F9 or F4, if BR rounds and makes contact with F3, that OBS should be called (what OBS?? I dinna see any OBS). 
8. That high-fives and back slaps between 3BC and (B)Runners on a HR is “coach assistance”. 
9. That a flung bat is an Out (Never). 
10. Tape holding ear pads in, on a non-sanctioned game. 

[BigBlue4u]

3 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

2. Both (NFHS) catcher's feet outside the box before the pitch is thrown. (pitches getting missed and hammering me or brought to my attention)

Easy response:  "Catch, you want that pitch for a strike? Then stay in the catcher's box where you belong."

[Velho]

18 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Not to diminish your question, @BLWizzRanger, but in a rant like this, the ruleset – and, more importantly, the context matters… big-time. 

So it matters if the stick is a yard or a meter long?

[kylehutson]

Ooh, just thought of another one... NFHS, not coming to a complete stop in the set position when there's nobody on base.

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Not to diminish your question, @BLWizzRanger, but in a rant like this, the ruleset – and, more importantly, the context matters… big-time. There are things that we can absolutely “let slide” in a men’s amateur league game that cannot be ignored in a sanctioned college game. There are things that I have no need to address in a 16U Perfect Game game – such as catchers wearing a two-piece mask, or what gaudy shapes of eye-black are on their face – but I am compelled to address in a sanctioned Varsity HS game… played by the same kids! 

👍

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

3.) For some inexplicable reason, some people subscribe to the notion that keeping guys in the dugout is a mark for/against one’s “game management skills”. 

As you said, context matters.  At the HS Varsity and below levels, I absolutely see this as a priority mark on one's game management skills, particularly when it comes to the coaches.  This quickly becomes the "give an inch, lose a mile" issue that, IMO, shows if you are managing the game.  That part applies to umpires AND COACHES.

Worked a HS field with open-front dugouts last weekend.  Even if I didn't know, I could have told you which team was the home team just by looking at the dugout behavior.  The home team guys never left the concrete pad, sat in chairs lined up at the edge (didn't even sick their feet out!), and were very attentive when the ball was in play.  The visiting team . . . 

 

No, it isn't a big deal until a runner scores on a live ball and . . . 

 

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

Here’s some gems 💎 (or, turds 💩) I don’t pick up: 

3. Any mention of sportsmanship at plate meetings 

(RE: NFHS) I was with you on this one (absent the years we were directed to address this as a POE).  However, we are no longer allowed to deal with fans, so I added this to my list of "pre-game inventory items."  I don't talk about sportsmanship directly, but just confirm who the site administrator is.  Regardless of sportsmanship, we should know the answer in case of an emergency. 

1.) Are your players legally equipped under NFHS rules?

2.) Do we have an athletic trainer on site?

3.) Where is your AED located?

4.) Who is the site administrator who will handle anything outside of the fences?

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

Easy response:  "Catch, you want that pitch for a strike? Then stay in the catcher's box where you belong."

I don't think you understood the gist of the catcher's box nitpick. Prepitch by rule F2 must be in the box at TOP. No umpire at TOP is looking at where F2 or F3v is.

[umpstu]

5 hours ago, kylehutson said:

Ooh, just thought of another one... NFHS, not coming to a complete stop in the set position when there's nobody on base.

Never seen it called and I will never call it. What's the point? 

[MadMax]

22 minutes ago, umpstu said:

What's the point?

"Because that's the rule. If they didn't want it called, they wouldn't have written it in. If they wanted it ignored with no-one on base, then they would've written that in." 🤨 

[SeeingEyeDog]

14 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

3.) Where is your AED located?

I'm just asking the questions...

May it please the court, Coach Smith has testified here today that at the pre-game plate meeting you confirmed the location of the AED. Is this correct?

So, when Coach Jones collapsed and could have been aided by the administration of the AED, why are you seen here on the 50 game and cell phone cameras doing nothing to facilitate the administration of the AED and simply remaining on the field?

SIDEBAR: I'm not saying don't concern yourself with where the AED is. That's ALWAYS a good idea in ANY environment or situation. My only concern is what liabilities are we assuming by vocalizing this out loud? I can't really answer that because I only play an attorney on Internet forums...We all know that by God, if they can hang ANYTHING on an umpire, they will do so. Unless of course, your association or state athletic organization "requires" you to speak of the AED at the plate meeting in which case I have another rant...

This was by no means a sermon, simply an expression of my concern for you @The Man in Blue and what liabilities you may be unnecessarily be taking on, brother.

~Dawg

[BLWizzRanger]

13 hours ago, Jimurray said:

No umpire at TOP is looking at where F2 or F3v is.

Again, I am not picking up this stick unless I have to.

But, I agree with F3 since the look isn't in a straight line with a pitcher and I am concentrating on the pitcher.

F2 in NFHS?  Maybe not at first.  Spitting hairs here.  Two feet in the catcher's box means that he can be roughly inside armpit to the outer edge of the plate and still be legal.  I can 'feel' or see that just by being in the larger slot. If I 'feel' this, I might take a quick glance before the pitcher starts his motion. And I would only use this information if the other team says something or I am getting hit... a lot.

[The Man in Blue]

@SeeingEyeDog — I totally get what you are saying.  It is a state law that certain recreational facilities must have an AED.  I 1000% agree with you, it shouldn’t be my concern (especially since I don’t control anything outside the fences).  HOWEVER, covering that in pregame is one of the few required pregame items by IHSA.  If they don’t have one, we have to file a special report (and I have).  I guess it is their way of covering their butts.

So … like NJ’s sportsmanship pledge of allegiance?

[SeeingEyeDog]

17 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

HOWEVER, covering that in pregame is one of the few required pregame items by IHSA.  If they don’t have one, we have to file a special report (and I have).  I guess it is their way of covering their butts.

So … like NJ’s sportsmanship pledge of allegiance?

Mannnnnnnnn...why is this on the umpires? Full marks for requiring the AED, no question. But, this should be on the school principal or the AD and ultimately on the school system's superintendent. Good for you for filing a report.

What is the implementation? Are they required to have one at each field? (Football, baseball, soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, bass fishing...) Or just required to have one accessible to all the fields?

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

43 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Mannnnnnnnn...why is this on the umpires? Full marks for requiring the AED, no question. But, this should be on the school principal or the AD and ultimately on the school system's superintendent. Good for you for filing a report.

What is the implementation? Are they required to have one at each field? (Football, baseball, soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, bass fishing...) Or just required to have one accessible to all the fields?

~Dawg

Some good questions … from what I know (just enough to be dangerous) it is one per “site” and it must be publicly accessible.  Good Samaritan laws cover people using them.

Like I said, my guess is IHSA uses that to cover their butts.  Not exactly sure how or why, since they technically don’t “host” any games except the post season.  I would guess having umpires ask at every game lessens the possibility that the AD certified there was on at the beginning of the season and then it was moved?  No clue.  It is as worthless of a question as “are your players legally equipped” because the coaches are always just going to say “yes.”

[SeeingEyeDog]

12 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

It is as worthless of a question as “are your players legally equipped” because the coaches are always just going to say “yes.”

I've always wondered what percentage of coaches coaching under FED understand what they are doing when they agree that all of their players are legally and properly equipped and all of their equipment is conforming to FED rules?

~Dawg

[BigBlue4u]

20 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I don't think you understood the gist of the catcher's box nitpick. Prepitch by rule F2 must be in the box at TOP. No umpire at TOP is looking at where F2 or F3v is.

JMurray,

Point taken.  Thanks for the input.

[beerguy55]

On 4/3/2024 at 4:12 PM, MadMax said:

• Any mention of sportsmanship at plate meetings 
• Any directive about how to disagree with a call (they will), request Time (they won’t), and approach an umpire (some do already; some don’t and won’t care regardless) 

These should only ever be addressed in two scenarios...1. in a league pre-season coaches' meeting, with a UIC (or delegate) and league board representation, or 2. the pre-tourney coaches' meeting with the TD and UIC.

Not to mention, that any certified coach needs to learn these things before qualifying.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

On 4/3/2024 at 3:12 PM, MadMax said:

• Any mention of sportsmanship at plate meetings 
• Any directive about how to disagree with a call (they will), request Time (they won’t), and approach an umpire (some do already; some don’t and won’t care regardless) 

These should only ever be addressed in two scenarios...1. in a league pre-season coaches' meeting, with a UIC (or delegate) and league board representation, or 2. the pre-tourney coaches' meeting with the TD and UIC.

 

Not disagreeing but adding for LL we do the sportsmanship as parts of our LEGS part meeting. Personally, I literally say, "Those were ground rules... This is Little League so safety and sportsmanship matter. Have a good game."

I have raised #2 at plate but, at this point in my experience, I handle it during the game when managers get it wrong. Sometimes though, when working with a youth I don't know (or who is shaky) and managers I don't know, I proactively let them know that if they talk to the youth ump I'll be there as an observer.

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Not to mention, that any certified coach needs to learn these things before qualifying.

And that's why we do it at LL. The bar to manage is lower.