Called fair ball, out at first?

[Aaron C]

This happened at a Pony Bronco 12U game ..  line drive to right field.  Home plate umpire signaled it fair.  First base coach and everyone else thought it was foul.  First base coach sent the runner back to bat again after he touched 1st base.  Our coaches saw this and told him to get back on first.  Defense threw the ball to first and didn't tag the batter and just tagged the base.  Runner got back to first just after they stepped on 1st.  Is it still a force out even though he previously touched the base or does he need to be tagged for an out?

[Velho]

Curious - did the umpire say "FAIR!"? If not, why did everyone assume foul with no vocalization?

This is a proper out. Retreating from a forced base reinstates the force.

OBR 5.09(b)(6) The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance, and if he overslides or overruns the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out. However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;

Others: If we're nitting about BR to 1B not being a force, is there a cite that this logic doesn't apply in the OP?

[Tborze]

36 minutes ago, Velho said:

Curious - did the umpire say "FAIR!"? If not, why did everyone assume foul with no vocalization?

This is a proper out. Retreating from a forced base reinstates the force.

OBR 5.09(b)(6) The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance, and if he overslides or overruns the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out. However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;

Others: If we're nitting about BR to 1B not being a force, is there a cite that this logic doesn't apply in the OP?

Doesn’t OBR consider 1B a “forced” base?

[Aaron C]

umpire did not say fair just hand signaled it fair.

 

[Senor Azul]

No, first base is not a force out base. It doesn't meet the definition so a force cannot be reestablished--in addition, a batter-runner is never considered to occupy home plate.

We had a similar discussion a long time ago and to be honest I was shouted down then. The consensus then was the same as it appears to be now that the runner can be put out simply by stepping on first.

Not a whole lot is written about this kind of play but I did post the following in the old thread:

2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (p. 47):  A batter-runner who advances to first base and then retreats to the home plate side of first base can be tagged out while off the base.

We already have a rule in place--if a runner attains a base and chooses to leave the safety of the base he is then in jeopardy of being tagged out.

[Senor Azul]

Deleted--somehow was duplicated.

[Senor Azul]

The first written baseball rules are  commonly called the Knickerbocker rules. Originally the way any runner was put out was to be in possession of the ball and step on the base the runner was advancing to. In 1848 the rule was changed to just apply that method to first base.

I believe the definition of a force play came along in the 1860s. So retiring the batter-runner at first base by just stepping on the base has never been considered a force out.

[Lou B]

A batter/runner, by definition cannot be a "force out".  A force out occurs when a runner is " forced" to advance because of the action of the batter.  

As such, I would rule the batter/runner safe at first since he was not tagged while off the base.

[The Man in Blue]

I just want to say I am proud of you guys . . . nobody has tried to pull the "a word" out yet.  😋

[Velho]

3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I just want to say I am proud of you guys . . . nobody has tried to pull the "a word" out yet.  

OP is 12U. Too young for nihilism.

edit: oh, you meant in regards to running the bases… nevermind.

Edited March 20 by Velho
Proving once again baseball is life

[beerguy55]

All right, for the purposes of the English language let's say he is "required" to advance to first.  Obligated...mandated...ordered...enforced...anything to avoid the "f" word and keep panties from getting into knots.

I've always said that for all intents and purposes the B/R going to first is a "force", if not by baseball definition, but by practicality.

Are we really suggesting that THIS is the exception?

So, let's play this out...B/R reaches and touches first...and for any number of reasons retreats five or six steps to home plate.  Now playing action ends...and let's say the ball stays live.  We just gonna let the B/R stay there for the next pitch?   AND we're going to require a tag of the runner?   Are we going to grant Time?  He's "required" to be at or beyond first base.  Touching the base should be enough, even if he's already been there.

Let's get really stupid...You now going to allow a run down between home and first?  Because the defense needs to tag him...even though he's not allowed to reach home and the MUST reach first.  And now, F1 gets savvy.  He just catches the ball and sits on first base...and waits.  You really just going to let F1 stay on first and B/R stand 45 feet away until the end of time?   The BR is out.   And not by abandonment.

Yeah, he's not "forced" by baseball definition, be he is by English definition...treat it that way.

[Mussgrass]

Regardless of the outcome, the first base coach should be running laps for this bonehead move.

[Coach Carl]

Setting aside the proper ruling in the OP, can I ask the umpires about a game management issue in this scenario?

If "everyone" thinks it was foul and you are calling fair would you consider that maybe you got it wrong and change your call to foul and letting "everyone" go on with the game as they thought it would go (batter returns to home to complete his at bat)?  At this 12U level?  At higher levels?

[SeeingEyeDog]

4 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

Setting aside the proper ruling in the OP, can I ask the umpires about a game management issue in this scenario?

If "everyone" thinks it was foul and you are calling fair would you consider that maybe you got it wrong and change your call to foul and letting "everyone" go on with the game as they thought it would go (batter returns to home to complete his at bat)?  At this 12U level?  At higher levels?

I wasn't there coach and I do understand what you are getting at...

If an umpire allows "everyone" to countermand their judgements and ultimately the calls, this puts The Game and the umpire in a precarious place. Maybe it was foul...but, if you flip your own call like that, you are now sending a message to everyone there that your calls are "open for public opinion". And now for the rest of THAT game, anytime there is something that is close or borderline, the people there are going to expect to "have a say" because that earlier one was flipped.

We don't issue make up calls. We don't flip our own call on public opinion.

~Dawg

[Velho]

11 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

If "everyone" thinks it was foul and you are calling fair would you consider that maybe you got it wrong and change your call to foul and letting "everyone" go on with the game as they thought it would go

If I've already signaled fair? No, I'm not reversing that without new information from my partner(s).

Should umpires be in a hurry to call fair or foul? No.

On a 50/50 ball that lands 200+ feet away will I take in all available information before making that call? Yes.

 

FWIW - When I coached, a batter is running one way or the other - either on that hit or later. Coaches need to preach "play to the whistle".

[beerguy55]

50 minutes ago, Velho said:

If I've already signaled fair? No, I'm not reversing that without new information from my partner(s).

 

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

We don't issue make up calls. We don't flip our own call on public opinion.

~Dawg

Believe me, I understand your position, but don't dismiss the idea out of hand.

New information doesn't have to come only from your partners.  No, I'm not saying to blindly or openly go with a crowdsourced opinion, all I'm saying is there are many ways for you to obtain new/different information, even if working solo, if you do realize that you, on those rare occasions, laid an egg.

Sure, you may want to save face and not appear to be a pushover...and in doing so you can stubbornly stick with a call that everyone, including you, knows is wrong.

I'm not talking about a ball that lands three inches foul...I'm talking about a ball that lands three FEET foul (and don't dismiss it...I've seen this called a fair ball...more than once)

 

[Velho]

22 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm not talking about a ball that lands three inches foul...I'm talking about a ball that lands three FEET foul (and don't dismiss it...I've seen this called a fair ball...more than once)

Thanks for the response. Let me take the opportunity to clarify:

If I signal incorrectly because a of brain glitch, I reverse it. e.g. in OP: Point my arm to indicate, internal brain "oh crap, it's foul", loud verbal "FOUL! FOUL! FOUL!" or verbal on starting to say safe when it's out: "Saaayyfff... OUT OUT! OUT!!"

Conversely, back to OP, internal vocie "Wow, that was close. Real close. Ok, make a call: Fair. Point it Fair" and the park says it's foul? Nope. We're staying with that.

 

22 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Sure, you may want to save face and not appear to be a pushover...and in doing so you can stubbornly stick with a call that everyone, including you, knows is wrong.

Agreed. Drop the ego. Get the call right.

The real lesson? SLOW DOWN!

[The Man in Blue]

9 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

All right, for the purposes of the English language let's say he is "required" to advance to first.  Obligated...mandated...ordered...enforced...anything to avoid the "f" word and keep panties from getting into knots.

I've always said that for all intents and purposes the B/R going to first is a "force", if not by baseball definition, but by practicality.

 

A force can be removed.  How do you remove the BRs obligation to go to first base? 

A force play is like closing time at the bar: you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.  It isn't about where they have to go, it is about where they have to leave.

 

9 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

So, let's play this out...B/R reaches and touches first...and for any number of reasons retreats five or six steps to home plate.  Now playing action ends...and let's say the ball stays live.  We just gonna let the B/R stay there for the next pitch?   AND we're going to require a tag of the runner?   Are we going to grant Time?  He's "required" to be at or beyond first base.  Touching the base should be enough, even if he's already been there.

Let's get really stupid...You now going to allow a run down between home and first?  Because the defense needs to tag him...even though he's not allowed to reach home and the MUST reach first.  And now, F1 gets savvy.  He just catches the ball and sits on first base...and waits.  You really just going to let F1 stay on first and B/R stand 45 feet away until the end of time? 

You know that softball has a provision . . . but baseball does not . . . sort of.

 

 

9 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

The BR is out.   And not by abandonment.

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, Coach Carl said:

Setting aside the proper ruling in the OP, can I ask the umpires about a game management issue in this scenario?

If "everyone" thinks it was foul and you are calling fair would you consider that maybe you got it wrong and change your call to foul and letting "everyone" go on with the game as they thought it would go (batter returns to home to complete his at bat)?  At this 12U level?  At higher levels?

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming out to Umpire-Empire Field for tonight's game between the Knottstown Ties and YOUR OTISBURG OTTERS! 

Make sure you visit the concession stand and scan the QR code to download our new "You Make the Call App!"  We can't afford instant replay in this league, but each coach will be allowed three challenges that go to the crowd for review!  

By using the app, you will be able to cast your vote as to how the call will go when there is a challenge.   During each challenge, one lucky fan casting a vote on the app will win a $10 voucher good for $2 worth of merchandise at the souvenir shop!  This promotion is brought to you by the fine folks at Cantseeum Optometry and 2+2+1 Accounting.

[beerguy55]

17 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

A force can be removed.  How do you remove the BRs obligation to go to first base? 

A force play is like closing time at the bar: you don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.  It isn't about where they have to go, it is about where they have to leave.

Which is the point I'm getting at. Yes, a "force" - baseball definition - can be removed.  The B/R has no such luxury...it's closing time for them too...

The B/R can't stay in the batter's box and hit again.  He can't stand on home plate while the next batter is up.

He MUST go to first base.  To rule that he must be tagged between first and home, simply because he's already touched first, is silly.

17 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

You know that softball has a provision

Yup...sort of..B/R may not retreat towards home plate to avoid being tagged - if they do, they're out, dead ball, and runners return TOP.

But even in softball B/R could simply stand a few steps from home plate and wait.

[Coach Carl]

17 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for coming out to Umpire-Empire Field for tonight's game between the Knottstown Ties and YOUR OTISBURG OTTERS! 

Make sure you visit the concession stand and scan the QR code to download our new "You Make the Call App!"  We can't afford instant replay in this league, but each coach will be allowed three challenges that go to the crowd for review!  

By using the app, you will be able to cast your vote as to how the call will go when there is a challenge.   During each challenge, one lucky fan casting a vote on the app will win a $10 voucher good for $2 worth of merchandise at the souvenir shop!  This promotion is brought to you by the fine folks at Cantseeum Optometry and 2+2+1 Accounting.

I appreciate the comedy as much as the next guy but I was really trying to get some game management advice.  I am not a current coach but I was and I still volunteer in my Little League.  When an umpire is needed I am available to fill in.

One thing I have read is that you need not make a foul call when it's obvious to "everyone in the park".  Now, I know that "obvious" means something like going out of play or hitting the backstop.  I assume that did not happen in the OP, but his description of "everyone" caught my ear.  

I have also read that umpires should avoid "gross misses".  It was in the context of calling balls and strikes but I can certainly see how you would apply that to safe/out and fair/foul.  The advice stated that gross misses are sure to cause a game to go south.  

So, I have now concluded that sticking with a gross miss is better than changing it.  Unless anyone else has an opinion on the topic.

[Velho]

5 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

So, I have now concluded that sticking with a gross miss is better than changing it.

#1 Thank you for umpiring. As a "regular" umpire who partners with folks like you, I appreciate you doing it and especially appreciate you caring enough to come on here.

#2 We have given you the wrong impression.

I think it's important to define "gross miss". We have to differentiate "everyone" not liking the outcome or not understanding the rules:

A call which is unpopular is not a gross miss. "Everyone" thinks we have an infield fly with bases loaded and 2 outs or that R2 should score on a double when he left early (in LL). We ignore that "everyone" opinion because they are wrong.

Signaling Fair on a ball that was 10 feet foul, that's a gross miss we must fix*. Giving a strike 3 mechanic on a sweet pitch that was Strike 2 (like I did last week)? The kid isn't out. I loudly call "strike 2 strike 2", shake my head and try to flush my screw up before the next pitch.

It doesn't matter how foolish we look. Fix it. Learn from it so you don't do it again.

See my exchange with BeerGuy above for more detail.

* If we signal Foul on a 10 foot fair ball then it's dead and we apologize. It sucks. It's a lesson that we need to slow down.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 541, p. 353):

Note 505:  You must understand, though, that reversing a call from "fair" to "foul" causes no rules problem. You'll face an argument, but the changed call will not affect the outcome of the play. That is true whether fielders or runners reacted to an initial "point" toward fair territory. If the ball is subsequently ruled foul, simply order the batter back to the box--and any runners back to bases occupied TOP...

[Senor Azul]

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.41, p. 69):

The exception to Rule 5.09(b)(4) prohibits the batter-runner from being tagged out for overrunning or oversliding first base if he immediately returns to the base. However, once the batter-runner returns to first base safely after overrunning/oversliding the base, he is no longer protected from being tagged out if he subsequently loses contact with the base.

[BigBlue4u]

28 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 BRD (section 541, p. 353):

Note 505:  You must understand, though, that reversing a call from "fair" to "foul" causes no rules problem. You'll face an argument, but the changed call will not affect the outcome of the play. That is true whether fielders or runners reacted to an initial "point" toward fair territory. If the ball is subsequently ruled foul, simply order the batter back to the box--and any runners back to bases occupied TOP...

Very True.  The problem occurs when the call is changed from foul to fair. (2013 Western Regional Little League playoff fiasco.) In NFHS, if the ball is on the ground with a double call, it is automatically a foul ball, thus preventing this kind of a mess.

 

[beerguy55]

25 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.41, p. 69):

The exception to Rule 5.09(b)(4) prohibits the batter-runner from being tagged out for overrunning or oversliding first base if he immediately returns to the base. However, once the batter-runner returns to first base safely after overrunning/oversliding the base, he is no longer protected from being tagged out if he subsequently loses contact with the base.

Not relevant - does not answer the question posed.