Lodged ball? And ?

[DWDIII]

I was in C with R2. pitch bounced and entered the catcher’s jersey at the neck line. He dropped to his knees to block and it bounced up and into his jersey at the neckline. He reached to his neck and grabbed the ball and threw to third because the runner was attempting to advance. I had an out at third but my brain was screaming lodged ball.  I discussed with my PU who had no view of the lodged ball. I ruled the runner safe due to a lodged ball. At the time I felt good about it except: should it have been two bases? (which would have led to a SH*# storm with a run scoring) and was it really “lodged”? if the catcher could grab so quickly that the throw beat the runner (he wasn’t stealing, just trying to advance on a pitch in the dirt). Both teams were fine with my ruling and we moved on, the defensive head coach said “I thought it was rattling around in there” and I said he had to pull it out of his shirt and he turned and walked away (but if I had (probably correctly) awarded home that discussion would have been way longer))

thoughts? please…(btw one piece mask - high school varsity, first game of the year)

[SeeingEyeDog]

The A-Team will be along in the morning to review this more thoroughly. For now, you can review The Late Shift's response...

I have some cites but, before I list them I want to acknowledge absent video this is a "had to be there" (HTBT) situation. When we have something unusual, irregular or straight up unfamiliar on a baseball field as an umpire, our brains do not process that the same way as a "routine play". For myself, I used to really struggle with foul in the box. And I did that thing that umpires do when they aren't comfortable with what they THINK they saw so, I just vapor locked and read the batter, sometimes the ball rolls out fair so, F2 is now pouncing and making a play and if there's multiple runners on now, the "carousel" is in motion unnecessarily and I have now added an element of risk to injury to everyone on the field. And all because, I didn't trust what I saw or I didn't think I could trust what I saw. And with runners in motion, here comes my partner trying to bail out my mess trying to kill this play because he has it but, no one sees him but me and nobody stops until I actually mirror him and kill it.

We must call what we see...it is THE fundamental of Our Craft. I'm not here trying to tell you what you saw. I am simply telling you, if you are working the bases and there's a lodged ball at the plate, give your partner on the plate a beat, a moment to grab it and kill it. If he doesn't and you definitively have a lodged baseball? You kill that as loud...and as big...as you have ever killed a play ever. Keep killing it until all play and motion has stopped. Oh? And if you don't have a lodged baseball, you do nothing, of course. Can we clean this up after the play ends and reset everyone or whatever? Yes, that is of course a possible choice. No, that is not how we should be doing that. By the way, every coach is coming out on this. It's rule interpretation and potentially a rule application. Stay frosty and tell him what you have and what if anything you are awarding and why. Allow A question at your discretion, be approachable...and then get the game going. Your FED cites (...as I see it. @Senor Azul, by all means back me up, brother) are as follows:

Lodged ball defined: 2-4-4 A baseball that remains on the playing field but has become wedged, stuck, lost or unreachable is defined as a lodged ball. If a ball impacts something, stops abruptly, and does not fall or roll immediately, it has become lodged. It is a dead ball (5-1-1f-3,4; 5-1-1g-4)

Dead ball status of lodged ball immediate or delayed or something else?: 5-1-1f-3,4 Ball becomes dead immediately when a fair batted ball lodges in players or umpire's equipment or uniform or...

5-1-1g-4 ...a pitch or any thrown ball lodges in an umpire's, catcher's or offensive players equipment or uniform.

Final adjudication: 8-3-3d Each runner is awarded one base if a pitch or any throw by the pitcher from the pitching position on the pitcher's plate goes into a stand or bench or over or through or lodges in a fence or backstop or touches a spectator or lodges in an umpire's or catcher's equipment...

The final word I have for you on your situation here is...as described, we have a legally delivered pitch. So, once you've killed it and issued the appropriate awards, make sure the pitch is then added to the count. Sometimes in these situations, it's easy to make a mistake on the count and now you've compounded this situation. Plate should give the count in a situation like this, just before putting the ball back in play. If he does not give the count, tap your head and even re-kill it again (also loudly) and MAKE SURE the crew has the correct count. And obviously, if he gives the incorrect count, re-kill and get the correct count and resume.

Extra credit question for the forum...F1 releases a legal pitch which becomes lodged in the BATTER'S uniform or equipment. Why does 8-3-3f address this in such depth? The batter's uniform and or equipment was hit by a legal pitch when it then became lodged. He's hit by pitch. That's an immediate dead ball and he is awarded first base. If runners in front of him are forced, they also advance. If unforced, they do not advance. But because it then is lodged, ALL runners forced AND unforced are given a base? EDITORIAL: That's nonsense and I will enforce it as written.

~Dawg

 

[Velho]

51 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

"hard to be there" (HTBT)

Correcting a typo. HTBT = "Had To Be There"

51 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

The batter's uniform and or equipment was hit by a legal pitch when it then became lodged. He's hit by pitch.

HBP is not the only use case. A pitch deflecting off the catcher or umpire could be lodged in the offensive player uniform. It's still a pitched ball.

[Velho]

2 hours ago, DWDIII said:

I was in C with R2. pitch bounced and entered the catcher’s jersey at the neck line. He dropped to his knees to block and it bounced up and into his jersey at the neckline. He reached to his neck and grabbed the ball and threw to third because the runner was attempting to advance. I had an out at third but my brain was screaming lodged ball.

Not doubting you @DWDIII but trying to imagine the scenario that the uniform neck was loose enough for the ball to go inside plus an R2 slow enough that catcher could reach into his jersey to retrieve the ball (it coming out an untucked shirt at the belt line feels more conceivable).

Is it possible the ball was held to his chest/neck by his chin? That wouldn't be a lodged ball similar to a fielder trapping a ball between their arm and body wouldn't be lodged.

Again, not saying you're wrong, just thinking through the possibilities. See what we mean by HTBT? 😁

[SeeingEyeDog]

Brother @Velho, thank you for your expert editing. If this umpiring thing doesn't work out, maybe The Daily Planet is hiring? I have made the change above in my response. Thank you for reminding all of us a direct pitch becoming lodged is not the only scenario where we could apply this rule.

Brother @DWDIII, can you please give a bit more context on your final remark in your OP? How is use of a "one-piece mask" relative to this situation? And pardon me in advance if this obvious...

~Dawg

[maven]

If F2 makes a play on R2 stealing, is the ball really "wedged, stuck, lost or unreachable?" 

This is PU's primary, and if it happens so fast he's unaware of it, it can't really be lodged.

Finally, consider this: the lodged ball rule is there to protect the defense, who has been deprived of an opportunity to field a loose ball. Whey would we employ it to deprive the defense of an opportunity to play on a runner? 

As I envision the timing of this, I'd allow the play on R2 to stand.

[Senor Azul]

The FED definition of the term "lodged" was added to rule 2-4 as 2-4-4 in 2023. And it was fairly recently that they changed their interpretation of a ball being lodged in a glove remaining live--I think it was in 2019.

None of my rules manuals say anything about the lodged-ball rule is designed to protect the defense. So could you please provide a citation, Mr. maven. I always thought it was a penalty for the defense because they let the ball go out of play.

Getting back to the new definition of "lodged", the part right after the text you cited as evidence the pitch in the OP wasn't really lodged seems to apply. The ball didn't fall or roll  immediately. Even though the catcher was able to retrieve the ball rather quickly, it was by definition lodged.

 

[DWDIII]

Senor Azul!!!  The catcher had to reach up and grab it out of his neck area and it’s one base because it was a pitch. I’m feelin’ pretty good fellas. 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, DWDIII said:

Senor Azul!!!  The catcher had to reach up and grab it out of his neck area and it’s one base because it was a pitch. I’m feelin’ pretty good fellas. 

That's always a great feeling. We had that today with F2 OBS on a bang-bang play.

In no way challenging that feeling (though it may feel like it), here is some additional food for thought:

 

[MadMax]

On 3/15/2024 at 7:43 PM, DWDIII said:

pitch bounced and entered the catcher’s jersey at the neck line. He dropped to his knees to block and it bounced up and into his jersey at the neckline. He reached to his neck and grabbed the ball and threw to third because the runner was attempting to advance.

A lodged pitch is one base. Lodged in equipment or entering uniform of the catcher, batter, or umpire is treated the same as if it became wedged into the (any) padding behind home plate, or entangled in netting. 

If you (umpire) deem it lodged, then the throw-&-play at 3B is inconsequential; it didn’t happen, because the ball is dead (you make the call by starting with “Time!… that’s a lodged ball!… “). 

I had to make a similar call as BU (U1, specifically) on a U3K. The pitch ricocheted into/behind F2’s CP, and I watched him reach under his CP to retrieve it. Called “Time” and lodged ball, and awarded BR 1B. 
 

… 24 hours later, the streamcasters still didn’t know what I called (“Was it interference? No, can’t be that, because Jeffries would’ve been Out.”). 

EDIT: I failed to acknowledge that the NFHS rules adjustments / re-interpretations now allow the ball – whether pitched, thrown, or batted – to become stuck or lodged in a glove/mitt, and the ball remains Live. 

Edited March 17 by MadMax

[johnnyg08]

Immediately means "at once or instantly."

Instantly means "at once or immediately" 

If not, it's lodged. 

Here's a nice example: 

 

[BLWizzRanger]

Immediately means "at once or instantly."
Instantly means "at once or immediately" 
If not, it's lodged. 
Here's a nice example: 
 

Since we cant ask the U3, are you saying that you believe that because he lost site of the ball he called it lodged? The ball enters at one point and exits at a lower point and for a beat, it was behind ivy where you couldnt see it. I would even say there was no delay as the ball went through the ivy.





Sent from my SM-F721U1 using Tapatalk

[johnnyg08]

2 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Since we cant ask the U3, are you saying that you believe that because he lost site of the ball he called it lodged? The ball enters at one point and exits at a lower point and for a beat, it was behind ivy where you couldnt see it. I would even say there was no delay as the ball went through the ivy.





Sent from my SM-F721U1 using Tapatalk
 

I believe that while this is tight, I believe it's the correct call. The ball was not immediately playable. 

[maven]

4 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

I believe that while this is tight, I believe it's the correct call. The ball was not immediately playable. 

I would guess that the field has a ground rule concerning a batted ball that disappears from view, regardless of duration.

If not, I don't see a lodged ball in the video. No different from hitting a wall: the fielder wouldn't have played it as it hit the wall or fell to the ground, and I'd treat this the same way as I see it pop out immediately. Killing it here gives the defense an unfair advantage, IMO.

[johnnyg08]

48 minutes ago, maven said:

I would guess that the field has a ground rule concerning a batted ball that disappears from view, regardless of duration.

Good point. That's probably the case. 

[Senor Azul]

I remember a discussion we had about a lodged batted ball in a 2019 NLDS game. The ball was never out of sight and it was easily reachable for the fielder. The batter finished with a triple but it was decided after the play that the ball was lodged and sent the batter-runner back to second base.

The defense gained an advantage but that is not a factor in the decision. Mr. maven, how do you know that the ball that bounced out of the ivy was the actual game ball that entered the ivy a split second earlier?

[johnnyg08]

In our opinion, this is a better way to umpire vines. Lost or lodged, even temporarily is lost or lodged. 

As @Senor Azulstated, it could be something as simple as it being the actual ball or not? 

Prior to the NFHS POE, I believe that umpires had way to high of a standard to determine lost of lodged in vines. 

As someone who works several fields with vines, this was a welcomed adjustment to the rules. 

And I love the phrasing..."immediately playable."

[Senor Azul]

It has happened a few times at Wrigley Field when one ball went in and two popped out. It has also been rumored that players have stashed an extra ball in the ivy for emergency use. 

[The Man in Blue]

13 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

Immediately means "at once or instantly."

Instantly means "at once or immediately" 

If not, it's lodged. 

Here's a nice example: 

 

 

The ball does not come out unimpeded.  It is slight, but it does hang up on something that disrupts its fall.  The ball is lodged and is immediately dead.  Same as with the catcher in the OP.  It does not matter what a fielder can or cannot do, it matters that the ball does not fall or continue to travel unimpeded.

It can bounce off and keep moving.  It cannot hit something that interrupts free fall or stops it from rolling.

This can suck.  Any immediate dead ball call, as opposed to a delayed dead ball call, can suck.  Balk with a home run in Fed?  Sucks.  Ball hangs up on something?  Immediately dead, sucks for whoever would have benefited (offense or defense).  

The field I worked yesterday has a slope running to the outfield wall.  During the ground rules, the coach let us know that there is NO opening there for the ball to get through, but we might lose sight of it.  Sometimes it can look like a fielder is fishing for a lodged ball, but there is no opening.  (Yes, I walked out and looked at it.)  Losing sight of the ball is NOT a lodged ball.

Anything preventing the free movement of the ball, either falling (as the ivy did in that video) or rolling is a lodged ball.

 

Here is a montage:

 

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

It has happened a few times at Wrigley Field when one ball went in and two popped out. It has also been rumored that players have stashed an extra ball in the ivy for emergency use. 

 

Anytime I end of with two balls on the field (usually a foul ball knocks down a second ball from the backstop), I try to tell them it is like the bonus ball in pinball . . . anything that happens is double value!  😋

[SeeingEyeDog]

When I am commissioner, the use of vines within 6 parsecs of an MLB stadium or any other inherent design flaw that would lead to lodged or loss of sight of the baseball by the umpires will be prohibited...

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

24 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

When I am commissioner, the use of vines within 6 parsecs of an MLB stadium or any other inherent design flaw that would lead to lodged or loss of sight of the baseball by the umpires will be prohibited...

~Dawg

If you are willing to address catch nets and yellow lines and padding also you have my vote. When is the next election?

[SeeingEyeDog]

Miss Tessmacher, please add @Jimurray's needs to my platform and make sure he is getting our newsletter...
 

~Dawg