Runner not returning to base before start of pitch (LL)

[BDad]

LL Majors. R1, R2. R1's secondary lead after pitch is probably 20 feet off the base, dancing around, etc. DHC tells F2 to throw back to F1 and ignore R1 because they have R2. F1 receives the ball, takes his position, and starts his pitching motion--R1 is still dancing around. What do you have?

Rule 7.13 says "When a pitcher is in contact with the pitcher's plate and in possession of the ball and the catcher is in the catcher's box ready to receive delivery of the ball, base runners shall not leave their bases until the ball has been delivered and has reached the batter." We usually interpret this with respect to a runner "leaving early" during a pitch. What if the runner never returned to the base?

[JonnyCat]

Nothing, yet.

R1 is not subject to a penalty until the ball is put into play. Then enforcement of 7.13 may or may not come into play. If the BR gets a base hit, and you end up with bases loaded, then there is no provision to enforce 7.13. 7.13 doesn't just cover runners leaving early, it also covers runners not in contact with their base prior to the pitch being thrown.

There are ways to exploit 7.13, but most of the time, it ends up hurting the offense.

I'm surprised at the majors level, the defense doesn't just throw and try to retire R1. 20 feet off the base? They should be able to record an out on R1.

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, BDad said:

LL Majors. R1, R2. R1's secondary lead after pitch is probably 20 feet off the base, dancing around, etc. DHC tells F2 to throw back to F1 and ignore R1 because they have R2. F1 receives the ball, takes his position, and starts his pitching motion--R1 is still dancing around. What do you have?

Rule 7.13 says "When a pitcher is in contact with the pitcher's plate and in possession of the ball and the catcher is in the catcher's box ready to receive delivery of the ball, base runners shall not leave their bases until the ball has been delivered and has reached the batter." We usually interpret this with respect to a runner "leaving early" during a pitch. What if the runner never returned to the base?

An opportunity to play real baseball.

[Velho]

16 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Nothing, yet.

R1 is not subject to a penalty until the ball is put into play. Then enforcement of 7.13 may or may not come into play. If the BR gets a base hit, and you end up with bases loaded, then there is no provision to enforce 7.13. 7.13 doesn't just cover runners leaving early, it also covers runners not in contact with their base prior to the pitch being thrown.

Agreed w/ Jonny Cat. Apply same penalty, if any, as standard leaving early (and likely do preventative umpiring telling them to knock it off).

[BigBlue4u]

18 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

R1 is not subject to a penalty until the ball is put into play.

 

21 hours ago, BDad said:

LL Majors. R1, R2. R1's secondary lead after pitch is probably 20 feet off the base, dancing around, etc. DHC tells F2 to throw back to F1 and ignore R1 because they have R2. F1 receives the ball, takes his position, and starts his pitching motion--R1 is still dancing around. What do you have?

Rule 7.13 says "When a pitcher is in contact with the pitcher's plate and in possession of the ball and the catcher is in the catcher's box ready to receive delivery of the ball, base runners shall not leave their bases until the ball has been delivered and has reached the batter." We usually interpret this with respect to a runner "leaving early" during a pitch. What if the runner never returned to the base?

  I don't have a LL rule book.  The MLB book does have 8.01 (b) which states "....Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything that affects the administering of these rules and to enforce the prescribed penalties."  In the OP, I would instruct the runner to return to the base.  If he refuses, I would inform his manager that if he continues to refuse, he is subject to ejection.  That would be an 8.01 (c) if LL does not have 8.01 (b) or similar in its rule book.  I wouldn't wait for the ball to be put in play.  I would deal with it immediately.

[ousafe]

LL - also keep in mind that if the runner has "left early", they cannot correct that violation by retouching.

[Lou B]

18 hours ago, Jimurray said:

An opportunity to play real baseball.

No one plays "real baseball" at age 12.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

 

  I don't have a LL rule book.  

But it appears you have a MSU rule book. Why use OBR 8.01(b), LL 9.01(b)when LL has a rule for the violation?

[Velho]

1 hour ago, ousafe said:

LL - also keep in mind that if the runner has "left early", they cannot correct that violation by retouching.

Exactly. If they aren't back by TOP (i.e. F1 starts motion) then...

 

[BDad]

3 hours ago, ousafe said:

LL - also keep in mind that if the runner has "left early", they cannot correct that violation by retouching.

 

21 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Nothing, yet.

R1 is not subject to a penalty until the ball is put into play. Then enforcement of 7.13 may or may not come into play. If the BR gets a base hit, and you end up with bases loaded, then there is no provision to enforce 7.13. 7.13 doesn't just cover runners leaving early, it also covers runners not in contact with their base prior to the pitch being thrown.

There are ways to exploit 7.13, but most of the time, it ends up hurting the offense.

I'm surprised at the majors level, the defense doesn't just throw and try to retire R1. 20 feet off the base? They should be able to record an out on R1.

These are helpful, thanks! Let the pitch happen and then judge the runner left early. So only really matters if the ball is put in play, or a steal attempt, or whatever.

Fall ball with new kids (and coaches) moving up, so there's some adjusting. Majors level in spring, that kid's getting picked off all day.

4 hours ago, Velho said:

Agreed w/ Jonny Cat. Apply same penalty, if any, as standard leaving early (and likely do preventative umpiring telling them to knock it off).

Yeah, I basically did this...told him to get on the base before the pitcher starts pitching. And mentioned it to the coach between innings. Which led to "well what's the penalty for that".

[stevis]

20 minutes ago, BDad said:

 

Which led to "well what's the penalty for that".

[JonnyCat]

3 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

I don't have a LL rule book.  The MLB book does have 8.01 (b) which states "

LL majors level is closed bases, no leading off. 7.13 in the LL rule-book deals with what to do if a runner leaves early, or is not in contact with the base when the pitch is delivered.

No need to apply 8.01(b), or any other rule

[ArchAngel72]

Well being that its fall ball.

 

Reach into your ball bag pull out your 2 remaining balls throw one to 2nd and 1 to 1st and see which player tags R1 out...

[beerguy55]

19 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

 

  I don't have a LL rule book.  The MLB book does have 8.01 (b) which states "....Each umpire has authority to order a player, coach, manager or club officer or employee to do or refrain from doing anything that affects the administering of these rules and to enforce the prescribed penalties."  In the OP, I would instruct the runner to return to the base.  If he refuses, I would inform his manager that if he continues to refuse, he is subject to ejection.  That would be an 8.01 (c) if LL does not have 8.01 (b) or similar in its rule book.  I wouldn't wait for the ball to be put in play.  I would deal with it immediately.

First - it's easy to get - it's a free app called "LL Rulebooks".

Second - wtf?  LL has a rule about what to do when a runner leaves early...and that includes not ever returning to the base...no reason to drop any hammer, let alone one from a ruleset that doesn't have early leadoff rules.

Even in softball, where the penalty for leaving early is an out, the mechanisms are pretty similar...just that you can call the runner out before the pitch is thrown.  LL baseball isn't an out, so rule accordingly....usually it means returning a runner who otherwise advanced.

After the next pitch the team should be throwing to try to get the runner out...they have nothing to lose...if he reaches second base he has to go back to first for "leaving early"...(it may be liberal to consider the runner to be advancing to second, but I think it's appropriate to treat it as such)

[BigBlue4u]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

First - it's easy to get - it's a free app called "LL Rulebooks".

beerguy55..Thanks for the info.

[Velho]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

After the next pitch the team should be throwing to try to get the runner out...they have nothing to lose...if he reaches second base he has to go back to first for "leaving early"...(it may be liberal to consider the runner to be advancing to second, but I think it's appropriate to treat it as such)

It's absolutely appropriate. If BR doesn't reach first base, any outs made stand and ALL runners return to their TOP base. If BR goes beyond first, it's more complex but the rules (and threads on this site) cover that.