Does LL still require a dangling throat protector on all catcher's masks?

[SeeingEyeDog]

Is this applicable at all their levels of play? Just majors down?

~Dawg

[stevis]

Yep.  Rule 1.17, all levles.

[Jimurray]

23 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Is this applicable at all their levels of play? Just majors down?

~Dawg

Yes all levels. Why do you ask? If you call LL you would know. If you don't why give a sht? I believe the dangling throat protector was required when they had those skull caps with a mask and it was a good idea. I think you can still buy one. They never changed when hockey style masks came out, probably due to the suits. They have changed where they allow those danglers to hang. At one point in WP all the catchers had them low enough to be able to grasp the mask without the dangler interfering. They came up with an interp that the dangler had to hang no lower than some dimension. I haven't seen that interp recently and have not paid attention to dangler dangle dimension at WP recently although I did sarcastically post about it in years past, being that I don't believe they are needed.

[SeeingEyeDog]

5 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Yes all levels. Why do you ask? If you call LL you would know. If you don't why give a sht? I believe the dangling throat protector was required when they had those skull caps with a mask and it was a good idea. I think you can still buy one. They never changed when hockey style masks came out, probably due to the suits. They have changed where they allow those danglers to hang. At one point in WP all the catchers had them low enough to be able to grasp the mask without the dangler interfering. They came up with an interp that the dangler had to hang no lower than some dimension. I haven't seen that interp recently and have not paid attention to dangler dangle dimension at WP recently although I did sarcastically post about it in years past, being that I don't believe they are needed.

I don't call LL so no...I don't know. If I knew, why would I be on here wasting everyone's time and asking the question? I got pressed into service at the last moment today to work a LL Seniors Game today as a favor to my assignor.

Thanks for your answer? I guess? Not sure if I am doing this right...

~Dawg

 

[Jimurray]

2 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I don't call LL so no...I don't know. If I knew, why would I be on here wasting everyone's time and asking the question? I got pressed into service at the last moment today to work a LL Seniors Game today as a favor to my assignor.

Thanks for your answer? I guess? Not sure if I am doing this right...

~Dawg

 

If they don't have danglers tell them you think they will need them for the tournament. If one team  has one and the other doesn't it it's not a big deal as the catcher with the dangler has adjusted to it and probably has it hanging so low as to be inconsequential to his grasping it. I leave you to deal with any unlikely other perturbations of who has and who doesn't and what the coaches might complain about. Awaiting some ones post about your liability for ignoring LL rules.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. stevis posted the correct rule citation and here is the relevant Instructor's comment from the Little League RIM:

The extended mask does not satisfy the throat guard requirement. The "dangling" throat type guard must be an attachment to the mask (hockey style as well) that sufficiently protects the throat. The "dangling" type throat guard should be attached properly so that it isn't more than a half inch to three quarters of an inch below the lowest bar of the mask and it should "dangle" or move when tapped with a finger.

Thanks for asking. I hope this helps.

[SeeingEyeDog]

I talked to my assigner about it, too and he said "this is why we ask coaches about legally and properly equipped..."

You'll notice he is my assigner and not an attorney so, who knows how this plays out legally when a LL kid takes a pitch to the throat with no dangler...

Neither team's catcher had one. Assuming for the moment, they didn't have one in the dugout or in the car and I suspend the game? Those parents are burning my house down.

If I allow the game to continue and the kid gets hurt, am I responsible? Am I liable? How should this be handled in a non-tournament situation? Do we suspend the game, stay at the field and keep them on the clock while someone tries to go to a sporting goods store and return with the throat guards?

~Dawg

[DevildogUmp]

@SeeingEyeDogMy personal decision is I am not umpiring a game with a glaring safety violation (and the dangling throat protector is a safety rule). Same way I am not letting a team bat with a visibly damaged bat or batting helmets without two ear flaps (when required). And if a league doesn't want to back me on that decision, I'm fine with going to another league. I also am not a lawyer and I don't want to find out if I am liable in a courtroom for not enforcing rules.

For all those that say, just let them know to get it fixed by tournament, you are the reason we have some many arguments during the tournament. Enforce the rules correctly during the season and coaches, players, and parents won't be shocked when they get to tournament and they have to actually follow the rules in the book.

[Velho]

EDIT: Didn't see prior similar post. Not trying to pile on @SeeingEyeDog just didn't see it.

47 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Neither team's catcher had one. Assuming for the moment, they didn't have one in the dugout or in the car and I suspend the game? Those parents are burning my house down.

I sympathize but you wouldn't let them play without a catchers mask or a broken one. This isn't really that different. The rulebook is explicit and it's a rule about safety that's hard to argue against (imo).

47 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I talked to my assigner about it, too and he said "this is why we ask coaches about legally and properly equipped..."

That only goes so far. For example, I'm going to trust that regarding the catcher wearing a cup (I'm sure as heck not going to personally inspect for it). Once a violation comes to my attention, I can't ignore it. If the catcher tells me "I can't find my cup but my coach said it doesn't matter" you have to deal with it.

[JonnyCat]

51 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I talked to my assigner about it, too and he said "this is why we ask coaches about legally and properly equipped..."

You'll notice he is my assigner and not an attorney so, who knows how this plays out legally when a LL kid takes a pitch to the throat with no dangler...

Neither team's catcher had one. Assuming for the moment, they didn't have one in the dugout or in the car and I suspend the game? Those parents are burning my house down.

If I allow the game to continue and the kid gets hurt, am I responsible? Am I liable? How should this be handled in a non-tournament situation? Do we suspend the game, stay at the field and keep them on the clock while someone tries to go to a sporting goods store and return with the throat guards?

~Dawg

I can tell you that LL is very strict about dangling throat-guards. They want them on and any catchers helmet that doesn't have one doesn't play. I'm not telling you what to do, but that's what LL wants.

The problem arises in Senior League LL because those kids are usually HS players that start playing after their HS season is over. They usually will use their HS gear rather than league issued gear, so naturally they won't have the throat-guards.

 

33 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

For all those that say, just let them know to get it fixed by tournament, you are the reason we have some many arguments during the tournament. Enforce the rules correctly during the season and coaches, players, and parents won't be shocked when they get to tournament and they have to actually follow the rules in the book.

This exactly! This always happens, not just for the Seniors, but all levels of LL. Rules don't get enforced during the regular season, and sometimes the early parts of LL All Stars. When they get deeper in the tournament where the rules are strictly enforced, we always hear the same mantra, "we've played that way all year."

We usually see this with leagues that use paid umpires that don't bother to learn or know the LL rules, nor do they enforce them. They don't check gear, they don't know about pitch counts, catcher to pitcher and pitcher to catcher restrictions, and a whole host of other rules specific to LL. Not bashing on paid umpires, it's just what we experience year after year. LL is very good about training their umpires in the rules, at least out here in the West Region. We don't see the egregious ignoring of the rules with our trained volunteer umpires. Your Region or League's mileage may vary.

 

16 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

 I got pressed into service at the last moment today to work a LL Seniors Game today as a favor to my assignor.

Here's the thing that many probably don't know about LL Senior League this year. Senior teams don't have to play ANY regular season games to qualify for All Star. New rule change this year. A league can put a team together and go right to All Stars without ever playing a regular season game. So basically, all games before All Stars are practice games. It used to be kids needed to play in at least 12 regular season games in order to be eligible for All Stars. Not any more.

If they aren't following the LL specific rules, shame on them! I'm sick of teams entering organizations without learning the rules. News flash to managers, coaches, and players. LL owns the organization and the tournament. It's THEIR tournament and THEIR rules. If you want to play in LL All Stars, they expect you to follow the rules. I'm tired of hearing, "it's dumb, we don't do that in HS, we haven't been playing that way all season, I'm an idiot coach and too stupid to read a rule-book, blah, blah, blah." Don't play in it then. That goes for any organization. Would you not enforce the FPSR in HS for those excuses? What about the infield fly?

Me personally, I would most likely tell them to get some danglers, or I'm leaving and they can have a practice game. It's all practice anyway for the LL Senior regular season. I'm no lawyer, but if you knowingly ignore a safety rule, and someone gets hurt, seems to me you could be opening yourself up for potential liability.

[Jimurray]

15 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. stevis posted the correct rule citation and here is the relevant Instructor's comment from the Little League RIM:

The extended mask does not satisfy the throat guard requirement. The "dangling" throat type guard must be an attachment to the mask (hockey style as well) that sufficiently protects the throat. The "dangling" type throat guard should be attached properly so that it isn't more than a half inch to three quarters of an inch below the lowest bar of the mask and it should "dangle" or move when tapped with a finger.

Thanks for asking. I hope this helps.

The reason that attachment advice is in the RIM is because in the past at WP the catchers would have danglers so low as to be ineffectual. I never thought they needed to be effective because HS, NCAA, PONY all function safely without danglers. But it was mentioned that if LL thought they were a safety issue why did all the suits at WP allow non safe wear at the World Series. I believe Andy Konyar, RIP, came out with the “proper” dimension the next year. 

[834k3r]

4 hours ago, DevildogUmp said:

@SeeingEyeDogMy personal decision is I am not umpiring a game with a glaring safety violation (and the dangling throat protector is a safety rule). Same way I am not letting a team bat with a visibly damaged bat or batting helmets without two ear flaps (when required). And if a league doesn't want to back me on that decision, I'm fine with going to another league. I also am not a lawyer and I don't want to find out if I am liable in a courtroom for not enforcing rules.

For all those that say, just let them know to get it fixed by tournament, you are the reason we have some many arguments during the tournament. Enforce the rules correctly during the season and coaches, players, and parents won't be shocked when they get to tournament and they have to actually follow the rules in the book.

+1

I've held up the beginning of an inning when the catcher came out with a HSM without a throat guard. "Coach, your catcher has to have a dangling throat guard."

Thankfully in my case it was just unfastened and in the player's bag (he was a travel ball catcher that didn't need one for tournaments).

[834k3r]

4 hours ago, Velho said:

EDIT: Didn't see prior similar post. Not trying to pile on @SeeingEyeDog just didn't see it.

I sympathize but you wouldn't let them play without a catchers mask or a broken one. This isn't really that different. The rulebook is explicit and it's a rule about safety that's hard to argue against (imo).

That only goes so far. For example, I'm going to trust that regarding the catcher wearing a cup (I'm sure as heck not going to personally inspect for it). Once a violation comes to my attention, I can't ignore it. If the catcher tells me "I can't find my cup but my coach said it doesn't matter" you have to deal with it.

When I work LL games I ask every catcher (quietly so it's just the two of us) if they're wearing a cup. I would say about 80% of the players are wearing one. The other 20%? "I forgot."

I agree though--once we become aware of a safety issue (especially ones that are specifically mentioned in the rules) we can't ignore it. IMO, allowing no throat guards is the same as allowing on deck batters for majors and below.

[JonnyCat]

3 hours ago, 834k3r said:

When I work LL games I ask every catcher (quietly so it's just the two of us) if they're wearing a cup. I would say about 80% of the players are wearing one. The other 20%? "I forgot."

I'm never asking that, ever, ever, ever. Are you asking if they're wearing an athletic supporter, too? That's a LL rule, as well. I addressed that with the manager at the plate meeting when I asked if all his players were properly safety equipped. If for some reason a catcher tells me he's not wearing a cup (it's never happened, but if it does), then I'm addressing the issue. As far as I'm concerned, the catcher is wearing one.

I've even worked with some umpires that actually tell the kid to knock on their cup to make sure it's there. I'm not making that crap up either. Can't believe those dipSH*#s actually ask that.

Not telling anyone how to run their games. That's just my opinion. 

[Vegas_Ump]

I wear a dangling throat protector on my mask!  It's been hit more by thrown bats than baseballs!  But I'm glad I have it!

First name on a lawsuit will be the plate umpire's if a safety rule was not observed and something happens.

"Are your teams properly and legally equipped to play LL baseball?"

If they say yes, and a catcher comes out without proper gear, don't let them play.

Mike

Las Vegas

[Jimurray]

On 6/5/2023 at 10:24 AM, Vegas_Ump said:

I wear a dangling throat protector on my mask!  It's been hit more by thrown bats than baseballs!  But I'm glad I have it!

First name on a lawsuit will be the plate umpire's if a safety rule was not observed and something happens.

"Are your teams properly and legally equipped to play LL baseball?"

If they say yes, and a catcher comes out without proper gear, don't let them play.

Mike

Las Vegas

thread revival. 
I don’t see them stopping any games this year at LLWS with danglers “improperly” attached

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

I don’t see them stopping any games this year at LLWS with danglers “improperly” attached

Do you have examples? Are they too tight, too low, other?

In my experience (regular and all stars up to Section), if it's attached evenly (not only hanging from one side) there isn't much scrutiny. I say that based on the coaches looking at me like I've got two heads when I have them adjust it by a inch or two when it's either stuck firm or hanging down too far.

LLWS are given all new equipment aren't they? I'd hope Easton attached them perfectly when they handed them over.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

Do you have examples? Are they too tight, too low, other?

In my experience (regular and all stars up to Section), if it's attached evenly (not only hanging from one side) there isn't much scrutiny. I say that based on the coaches looking at me like I've got two heads when I have them adjust it by a inch or two when it's either stuck firm or hanging down too far.

LLWS are given all new equipment aren't they? I'd hope Easton attached them perfectly when they handed them over.

Can't peruse my DVR right now for pics but I remember from the few games I watched a bit 1 higher than the lowest rung and rigid and 2 hanging low, one of which also crooked.

[Velho]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Can't peruse my DVR right now for pics but I remember from the few games I watched a bit 1 higher than the lowest rung and rigid and 2 hanging low, one of which also crooked.

Yep. I just watched Rhode Island-Pennsylvania. RI catcher had his very low (middle of his chest) from the string ties being too long.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Yep. I just watched Rhode Island-Pennsylvania. RI catcher had his very low (middle of his chest) from the string ties being too long.

The ties are not too long as far as effectiveness is concerned. They would be as effective anywhere else on a hockey style helmet which would be not needed. I’m sorry that LL wraps you around the axle for such nit ant stuff when they know it is not a safety concern.

 

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

The ties are not too long as far as effectiveness is concerned.

Agree that being firm so it doesn't hang is a bigger problem but having down long enough for a ball to easily go through seems a problem to me as well.

Note that in the attached picture F2 is rising from a crouch so the dangle appears shorter than it is (best picture I could get with excessive effort).

[Velho]

[Jimurray]

5 hours ago, Velho said:

The last time this happened at WP Andy Konyar put out the RIM criteria for attaching for the next year. I think this time LL will quietly remove their requirement for a dangler on a hockey style mask next year. 

[ArchAngel72]

On 6/5/2023 at 11:24 AM, Vegas_Ump said:

I wear a dangling throat protector on my mask!  It's been hit more by thrown bats than baseballs!  But I'm glad I have it!

First name on a lawsuit will be the plate umpire's if a safety rule was not observed and something happens.

"Are your teams properly and legally equipped to play LL baseball?"

If they say yes, and a catcher comes out without proper gear, don't let them play.

Mike

Las Vegas

 

Ok not the same but you get the point?

 

https://www.goodmorningamerica.com/news/story/parents-file-lawsuit-league-after-sons-bunk-bed-99378944

[ArchAngel72]

8 hours ago, Velho said:

That is awful whomevers dad tied that on should be kicked in the groin.