check swing strike on a hit batter

[Kali]

So, you're the field umpire and you see a pitch come it above the zone and the batter starts to swing at the pitch and then it hits them on the hands.  Your partner starts to give them 1st but then comes to you for the check swing.  What criteria should be used to determine your call?  The position of the bat isn't simple since the pitch is up and in, the bat will likely remain up.  I have always been told that if the batter is still moving toward the pitch when it hits him, then it's a dead ball strike.  Is there another criteria I should be using?

[maven]

2 hours ago, Kali said:

I have always been told that if the batter is still moving toward the pitch when it hits him, then it's a dead ball strike.

This is not correct.

2 hours ago, Kali said:

Is there another criteria I should be using?

Yes, the same we always use for check swings: did the batter offer at the pitch?

If so, it's a dead-ball strike, no runner (including the BR) may advance. If not, it's a HBP, batter awarded 1B.

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, Kali said:

What criteria should be used to determine your call? 

The same criteria you'd use if the pitch didn't hit his hands.  Some codes have just judgment about an attempt to hit the pitch.  Some add a relationship between the bat and the player or the bat and the plate.

 

Sometimes, you just need to umpire.

[Jimurray]

26 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The same criteria you'd use if the pitch didn't hit his hands.  Some codes have just judgment about an attempt to hit the pitch.  Some add a relationship between the bat and the player or the bat and the plate.

 

Sometimes, you just need to umpire.

Just don’t umpire like this:

 

[Kali]

Jimurray, are you saying the umpire in the video did something wrong?  I don't see what he ruled on the pitch.  Hopefully, this player's substitute was awarded 1st.  There are times when a batter, to avoid being hit, will throw his hands and the bat forward to try and throw his body backwards, which is what happened here.  In which case, where the bat goes is of no importance.  However, in most cases, things are a little more subtle.  The plate umpire has a much better look at the last second reactions of the batter than does the field umpire.  When they toss the call out to the field, I have to assume they didn't see any last instant pull back.  I can only use the information I can get from 100+ feet away.  So telling me to "just umpire" isn't helpful.  I'm wondering if you have any personal guidelines that you're looking for?

[Jimurray]

15 minutes ago, Kali said:

Jimurray, are you saying the umpire in the video did something wrong?  I don't see what he ruled on the pitch.  Hopefully, this player's substitute was awarded 1st.  There are times when a batter, to avoid being hit, will throw his hands and the bat forward to try and throw his body backwards, which is what happened here.  In which case, where the bat goes is of no importance.  However, in most cases, things are a little more subtle.  The plate umpire has a much better look at the last second reactions of the batter than does the field umpire.  When they toss the call out to the field, I have to assume they didn't see any last instant pull back.  I can only use the information I can get from 100+ feet away.  So telling me to "just umpire" isn't helpful.  I'm wondering if you have any personal guidelines that you're looking for?

Stanton's sub took his place in the batter's box with 2 strikes. My personal guideline is to use what the rules say and judge whether the batter struck at the pitch.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Question...did the coach or player from the defense ask for a check swing appeal here, @Kali? They aren't required to of course but, I will say this...

You know how when we're on the plate and we have a close pitch and we start to stand up to call a strike and then we freeze and ball the pitch? Some refer to this as an umpire "balk". Well, that is your mind telling your legs to stand you up because...it was a strike!

Ok, similar thing here...if you are the one on the plate and you have this situation? That instinct that "sends" you to your partner? That's your mind telling you it's something other than a "routine" HBP...just take a moment and process that.

As for being on the bases, I don't like overruling a partner on this call unless it's blatantly obvious so, absent something obvious, I am going to say on the conference, "Partner, I have nothing else here so, we are going to go with your call." If I DO have something, I am going to say what I have and let him make the decision to reverse himself based on what I told him I saw. This then allows him an opportunity if he reverses himself to tell the negatively impacted coach on the call, "Coach, my partner had this [insert what he had...] on this play and the batter is...[insert final decision]." The coach may not like that call. And that's ok. But, you are demonstrating your willingness to get together on calls and how you do your final adjudications. Coaches like to think another member of the crew comes rushing in to step all over their partner's call...no, that's not how it should work.

If you were told that if the batter is still moving when HBP then it's a strike, I would tell you to find a rule or rules that supports that "decision". Did he offer? It's judgement...that's why our brothers are telling you that "sometimes you have to umpire". In the end, be able to tell your partner and a coach and or an evaluator what you saw on the play.

~Dawg  

[ArchAngel72]

In my views of that video..

Damn real speed I thought he was swinging.  Slow mo it looked defensive like he was trying to block the pitch.

I do not know if that was reviewable. But damn being at the plate or at A.  At game time I had a swing. Obviously replay tells me something else.

 

But I have been told at my level.  If you called ball and you have no one else its a ball.   If you have the opportunity to go check because EH the pitch was a ball but he was close on offering. ( Enough to make you go crap did he?)  Then yeah go check, you do not have to wait. Specifically if its a possible uncaught 3rd strike.

But its to me about getting the call correct. Not about stroking my ego cause I think I got it correct.

 

[maven]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Stanton's sub took his place in the batter's box with 2 strikes. My personal guideline is to use what the rules say and judge whether the batter struck at the pitch.

Isn't that what happened? The 0–1 pitch hit him as he swung, ruled a dead-ball strike, sub on the injury, the sub assumes the 0–2 count.

What was wrong about any of that?

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, maven said:

Isn't that what happened? The 0–1 pitch hit him as he swung, ruled a dead-ball strike, sub on the injury, the sub assumes the 0–2 count.

What was wrong about any of that?

I would judge that he didn’t strike at the pitch. If the PU grabbed the strike on his own I would suggest that that would be the wrong way to umpire. 

[MadMax]

18 hours ago, Kali said:

The position of the bat isn't simple since the pitch is up and in, the bat will likely remain up.

@UMP45 has used advice in the past, and at the time, I bristled at it, because I was coming into umpiring having been a very good defensive, 16-year catcher. As my umpire years are catching up to my playing years, that advice has made much more sense. I’m paraphrasing, but it goes – “To effectively judge plays, you must stop being (or thinking like) a player, and fully be (or operate as) an umpire.” 

Process and judge what you see, not what it might or likely will be. 

Batters read pitches and swing where they might be; umpires read pitches, and call them what they are. 

If you see a swing – what you determine a swing to be, as an umpire – you call it as a swing. 

[beerguy55]

On 5/10/2023 at 1:57 PM, Jimurray said:

I would judge that he didn’t strike at the pitch. If the PU grabbed the strike on his own I would suggest that that would be the wrong way to umpire. 

He struck at the pitch - it wouldn't be the first time someone swung at a pitch that hit them...even one that hit them in the head.  It likely looked good when he committed and then it tailed inside...and he couldn't check in time.   If the pitch somehow missed Stanton the result would have been same, a swing.