FED, illegal bat

[SeeingEyeDog]

JV game, 2nd inning...as the batter steps into the box, F1 comes down off the hill waving his hands and shouting something about an illegal bat. I ignore him. Finally, he calls for time and his manager comes out. After some discussion, the manager says, "Blue, we think that's an illegal bat..." and points to the batter's bat. I look over at the bat glancingly and then turn back to the coach and say, "Coach, you do recall that I asked both you and the opposing coach at the plate meeting if all your players were legally and properly equipped and does all of your equipment conform to NFHS rules, yes?"

"Yes..", he answered.

And then I asked him, "And you recall that both you and the opposing coach answered yes to both of those questions, yes?"

"Yes...", he answered.

"Coach, we're good here...unless you would prefer that we have all of the equipment pulled out of the dugouts and onto the field for inspection by me and my partner?", I asked.

"No, that won't be necessary...", he said and we resumed the game.

4th inning, same team on defense, same batter coming to the plate (Did I mention he is the #8 hitter?), different pitcher who does the same thing...comes down the hill and starts yelling at me about an illegal bat. Before I can get my hand up and finish rolling my eyes internally, Coach is at the opening of the dugout in utter mortification yelling at F1, "Jimmy! Knock that SH*# off! We talked about this 2 innings ago! If you ever do this again, you will not play!" Then he turns to me with his hands up and says, "I apologize, Blue..." and I just gave him a thumb up.

After the game, the batter's father came to us concerned that his son's bat which he just bought is illegal and I simply said, "Sir, if you have any questions about the legality of the bat you can speak with your son's Coach or consult the state high school athletic association's website as they maintain a list of illegal bats there."

I like where this ended up...any comments on the journey to that end, brothers?

~Dawg

 

[wolfe_man]

In 8 years of HS ball, never had this issue yet... hope I never do.  I DID get it brought up once in a summer travel tournament.  I can't remember how we decided to fix it, but it was amicable to both coaches. 

As a rule, the levels of baseball I work do not have umpires checking bats... ever.

I have no trouble with the journey yours took.  It had the desired result and got there pretty quickly.  Good job.

[The Man in Blue]

Here is my concern: IF the bat was illegal, YOU knowingly have allowed him to continue to use it.  You now have some liability should some freak thing happen.

However, this is the problem with illegal bats: it is ever evolving and we cannot reasonably be expected to keep up up with it.  FP softball just had a previously legal bat decertified by USA.  I never would have known that had I not gotten curious and clicked into a thread on another forum.  No, it is not practical to expect me to go look at an organization’s websites and bulletins every day (and memorize it).

Softball was pretty easy: was it stamped with the right organization’s stamp?  Yeah, there were some exceptions, but it was pretty clear cut.

I’ve only had one illegal bat claim in baseball and it bit the objecting team in the butt.  They won the objection (there was a one-letter variation in the bat’s serial number or some crazy thing), but the penalty was just removing the bat (per the tournament director) since the kid hadn’t hit with it.  TD also told us do not stop the clock during the protest.  Almost 40 minutes later we resumed play and the clock ran out on them.

[Mudisfun]

I have found 1 illegal bat in HS... kid is squared up in the box and as I was stepping in, noticed the HUGE graphic, white on orange... UAAASA BPF1.15 staring me in the face. I was not looking for this, it was just one of those things I caught subconsciously and then my brain kicked in and said, Hey! Wait a sec... 

Time. Let me see your bat. Opps.

Your out.

Coach you are restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game, of course after explaining the issue. (4-1-3b)

 

Damn travel ball bat got pulled out by mistake by the kid.

[834k3r]

27 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

I have found 1 illegal bat in HS... kid is squared up in the box and as I was stepping in, noticed the HUGE graphic, white on orange... UAAASA BPF1.15 staring me in the face. I was not looking for this, it was just one of those things I caught subconsciously and then my brain kicked in and said, Hey! Wait a sec... 

Time. Let me see your bat. Opps.

Your out.

Coach you are restricted to the dugout for the remainder of the game, of course after explaining the issue. (4-1-3b)

 

Damn travel ball bat got pulled out by mistake by the kid.

Not NFHS, but this happened to my son a few years ago (the first year USA Baseball stamps were required for LL). My son had a non-USA Baseball bat as his travel ball bat, and he took that up to bat in the district tournament. He never made that mistake again.

[SeeingEyeDog]

52 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Here is my concern: IF the bat was illegal, YOU knowingly have allowed him to continue to use it.  You now have some liability should some freak thing happen.

However, this is the problem with illegal bats: it is ever evolving and we cannot reasonably be expected to keep up up with it.  FP softball just had a previously legal bat decertified by USA.  I never would have known that had I not gotten curious and clicked into a thread on another forum.  No, it is not practical to expect me to go look at an organization’s websites and bulletins every day (and memorize it).

This was exactly my concern, too. I am not a lawyer but, I would love to hear from one on this. If you are out there, please weigh in...

My association, like yours', emphasizes the importance of the "legally and properly equipped" requiring a verbal affirmative by the coach. We have been advised this absolves us of any liability. This has always sounded sus to me. You make a good point, Blue Man...we know for a fact that if someone is seriously injured on a ballfield, whether illegal equipment is involved or not, the umpires may or may not be liable but, we all know they are getting a long phone call at minimum. And obviously, if there is illegal equipment involved which impacted the outcome of a baseball game, there will be comms on that, too. I'm guessing for JV regular season, this would not have been a concern here.

Man, this has been a weird scholastic season for me...

~Dawg 

[umpstu]

4 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

JV game, 2nd inning...as the batter steps into the box, F1 comes down off the hill waving his hands and shouting something about an illegal bat. I ignore him. Finally, he calls for time and his manager comes out. After some discussion, the manager says, "Blue, we think that's an illegal bat..." and points to the batter's bat. I look over at the bat glancingly and then turn back to the coach and say, "Coach, you do recall that I asked both you and the opposing coach at the plate meeting if all your players were legally and properly equipped and does all of your equipment conform to NFHS rules, yes?"

"Yes..", he answered.

And then I asked him, "And you recall that both you and the opposing coach answered yes to both of those questions, yes?"

"Yes...", he answered.

"Coach, we're good here...unless you would prefer that we have all of the equipment pulled out of the dugouts and onto the field for inspection by me and my partner?", I asked.

"No, that won't be necessary...", he said and we resumed the game.

4th inning, same team on defense, same batter coming to the plate (Did I mention he is the #8 hitter?), different pitcher who does the same thing...comes down the hill and starts yelling at me about an illegal bat. Before I can get my hand up and finish rolling my eyes internally, Coach is at the opening of the dugout in utter mortification yelling at F1, "Jimmy! Knock that SH*# off! We talked about this 2 innings ago! If you ever do this again, you will not play!" Then he turns to me with his hands up and says, "I apologize, Blue..." and I just gave him a thumb up.

After the game, the batter's father came to us concerned that his son's bat which he just bought is illegal and I simply said, "Sir, if you have any questions about the legality of the bat you can speak with your son's Coach or consult the state high school athletic association's website as they maintain a list of illegal bats there."

I like where this ended up...any comments on the journey to that end, brothers?

~Dawg

 

Just because the coaches confirmed that all equipment was legal doesn't mean some kid won't come up to bat with an illegal bat.  Could be a catcher using an illegal mask and the coach not realizing it is illegal.  Or a batter's helmet with a crack in it and nobody saw it until somebody wears it. Defecation occurs.

[ArchAngel72]

LL is a nightmare with this between kids playing travel or aau or cal ripken  you name it each league seems to have its own bat allowance and LL has theirs.  Ugh  every tourney game we do inspect equipment.  Season ball .. NOPE I ask the coaches at the meeting properly equipped as per the current LL rule book?  I admit though  Had one kid his 1st time up this year ( Yeah last year as 11yr old he hit dingers too)  But after his 1-1  moon shot that went probably 300 feet I did pick up and look at his bat to be sure it was a USA stamped bat and had no defects.   Sigh 3rd batter of the season this poor kid sees and at 1-1 B3 jacks a dinger that needed inflight meals.  The coaches prior to the meeting had asked me if I was going to check bats I said season ball no I dont but if someone hits a homerun I will check it for both of your sakes.  They both said that was fine.

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

5 hours ago, umpstu said:

Just because the coaches confirmed that all equipment was legal doesn't mean some kid won't come up to bat with an illegal bat.  Could be a catcher using an illegal mask and the coach not realizing it is illegal.  Or a batter's helmet with a crack in it and nobody saw it until somebody wears it. Defecation occurs.

I absolutely agree with this.  IMO, you are covered with the question and the affirmative. The issue was it was brought to the umpire’s attention and he chose to downplay, not check, and play on.  That brings us back to “knowingly” allowing it.  
 

I am not a lawyer, I didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, not have I watched Matlock or Law and Order recently.

[kylehutson]

I would at least ask the question "what makes you think this bat is illegal?" and then check that claim for validity. Seems like a pretty easy thing to address at that point.

[umpstu]

4 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

I absolutely agree with this.  IMO, you are covered with the question and the affirmative. The issue was it was brought to the umpire’s attention and he chose to downplay, not check, and play on.  That brings us back to “knowingly” allowing it.  
 

I am not a lawyer, I didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, not have I watched Matlock or Law and Order recently.

I watched some Better Call Saul last night so I'm an expert.

[Mudisfun]

Friday night at my daughters game, playing PONY 13/14U. Bats can either be USA Baseball or BBCOR, but no BPF1.15 bats... Team from Newport Beach is hitting well; too well. We are watching them hand the bat from batter to batter, which is never a good sign. 

Our coach heads to the umpire and complains that they are using an illegal bat. Umpire checks, and darn tooting, the bat is illegal. Last batter is out, 3rd out. Takes 2 runs off the board and oh, in this league? Player is ejected, manager is ejected.

We still lost, but at least the bat was not the reason for that.

[mac266]

Why not check the bat?  NFHS rules are very clear:  No more than 36 inches in length, no lower than a -3, composite and aluminum bats can be up to 2 5/8" in diameter and must have a BBCOR stamp.  Wooden bats can be up to 2 3/4" in diameter.  There are a few other things, but that was off the top of my head and if the bat violates one of the other minor requirements, it won't have a BBCOR stamp. 

Check the bat.  If they came to you and said the pitcher had pine tar on his hat, you would check it, right?  Why not check the bat?  Why not answer the father's question post game?

 

I don't understand your reasoning here.  It's part of our job to ensure that equipment is legal.  Sure, we don't do a lineup pre-game, but if something is brought to our attention it is our duty to check.

[Mudisfun]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:33 PM, ArchAngel72 said:

LL is a nightmare with this between kids playing travel or aau or cal ripken  you name it each league seems to have its own bat allowance and LL has theirs.  Ugh  every tourney game we do inspect equipment.  Season ball .. NOPE I ask the coaches at the meeting properly equipped as per the current LL rule book?  I admit though  Had one kid his 1st time up this year ( Yeah last year as 11yr old he hit dingers too)  But after his 1-1  moon shot that went probably 300 feet I did pick up and look at his bat to be sure it was a USA stamped bat and had no defects.   Sigh 3rd batter of the season this poor kid sees and at 1-1 B3 jacks a dinger that needed inflight meals.  The coaches prior to the meeting had asked me if I was going to check bats I said season ball no I dont but if someone hits a homerun I will check it for both of your sakes.  They both said that was fine.

 

 

The established process in the Western Region for Little League is that all bats, helmets and catchers helmets are inspected by the umpires prior to every game. Does every league do this? I highly doubt it, however in our district it is the standard operating procedure. Any league in our district that I umpire in, when I ask the coaches to have all the bats, hats and catchers masks out, either they already are lined up or they run and grab them. Never do we get that deer in the headlight look as I have received in out of district games when it is obvious that no one is checking regularly. Is it a PITA to do this every game? Yep... but the number of travel ball bats I have pulled out of the dugout prior to these games just reinforces that checking now saves a ton of problems then... 

Will the manager at the plate meeting tell me yes when I ask him if all players are legally and properly equipped and all equipment is legal? 99% chance he will... do I really think a volunteer manager is going to actually know that one of his players brought his TB bat to the game? Doubtful... should they, yes, but will they?

 

[ArchAngel72]

10 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

The established process in the Western Region for Little League is that all bats, helmets and catchers helmets are inspected by the umpires prior to every game. Does every league do this? I highly doubt it, however in our district it is the standard operating procedure. Any league in our district that I umpire in, when I ask the coaches to have all the bats, hats and catchers masks out, either they already are lined up or they run and grab them. Never do we get that deer in the headlight look as I have received in out of district games when it is obvious that no one is checking regularly. Is it a PITA to do this every game? Yep... but the number of travel ball bats I have pulled out of the dugout prior to these games just reinforces that checking now saves a ton of problems then... 

Will the manager at the plate meeting tell me yes when I ask him if all players are legally and properly equipped and all equipment is legal? 99% chance he will... do I really think a volunteer manager is going to actually know that one of his players brought his TB bat to the game? Doubtful... should they, yes, but will they?

 

We do not do it until playoff start.  I mean if someone said check that bat I would.  I would also check a bat if it sounded bad.  years past there were so many broken bats we did check them every game and tossed out several cause of cracks and etc. But next season they fixed the issues and they became scarce as that happened equipment inspections stopped happening except for playoff games and up.

 

As to the coaches "knowing" if a player carries a travel bat with them.  OH yeah all the teams I ump the coaches by the 2nd game KNOW who their TB players are and know if they have an illegal to LL bat.

 

[BrainFreeze]

On 5/8/2023 at 10:54 AM, Mudisfun said:

We are watching them hand the bat from batter to batter, which is never a good sign. 

That seems like the team knew it was an illegal bat.

Glad the player and coach were ejected, but that's apparently the penalty in PONY rules? 

Seems like more severe penalties should be available under other rulesets in a situation like the one described above. 

[Mudisfun]

1 hour ago, BrainFreeze said:

That seems like the team knew it was an illegal bat.

Glad the player and coach were ejected, but that's apparently the penalty in PONY rules? 

Seems like more severe penalties should be available under other rulesets in a situation like the one described above. 

At the game level, this was the penalty, and of course, they still won. There is no taking back what action previously occurred. When the 2 teams met again, our team beat the tar out of them... at their field, so there was some sweet, sweet revenge. At the league level, from what I understand, the coach who was involved was removed from the team. But they play in a different league than ours, we just inter-league with them, so I could be just passing bad information that I was given.