Ten MLB umps retiring

[SeeingEyeDog]

I'm confused...so, if I see an umpire make a mistake, as far as I am concerned...they did NOT in fact make mistake? Every call ever made, every call that ever will be made...ALL calls EVER are ALL correct?

I thought part of being part of a brotherhood means no one BUT us can call us out on our mistakes? What are the rules of the brotherhood anymore, brothers?

~Dawg

[UMP45]

7 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I'm confused...so, if I see an umpire make a mistake, as far as I am concerned...they did NOT in fact make mistake? Every call ever made, every call that ever will be made...ALL calls EVER are ALL correct?

I thought part of being part of a brotherhood means no one BUT us can call us out on our mistakes? What are the rules of the brotherhood anymore, brothers?

~Dawg

It's how you do it that matters.

[dumbdumb]

found some other stuff out there

well, for those who want to know why, from the post article on the court case below, why some favorites or some guys coming up may or may not ever make CC even though they get plenty of post season assignments, (i.e. Crew Chiefs open on home plate first day of the year normally, unless injured or on vacation if you want to go retrosheet for past umpires that did not make CC). This article gives the reason why, from the court case, and it is not just all about ball strike safe out. only these 2 factors matter when it comes right down to it (umpire leadership and situational management) irregardless of if we want to say these two categories are a more "subjective way" to evaluate to put CCs in or keep them out, rather than a more "objective way" of correct/incorrect calls on ball/strikes safe/out always being the most overriding factor for consideration. I would imagine those skills come into play with seasonal evaluations which come into play in the selection of post season assignments in the final evaluations.

https://nypost.com/2021/03/31/umpire-angel-hernandez-loses-discrimination-suit-against-mlb/

who knows, maybe it goes all the way back to this below. Article above says animus since 2001 though.

first Joe Torre ejection was in 1994, when Joe was with the St. Louis Cardinals.

ejection was for player allowing pitch to hit him

Cardinals manager Joe Torre ejected by HP umpire Angel Hernandez
for arguing that Rick White allowed the pitch to hit him

hard to win/convince on those type arguments sometimes (when it is not totally obvious or close to it. you know, that borderline read the mind one, like did it hit the bat or the hand) even trying to win the game of, handling the situation, so that you can come out smelling like a rose in an unwinnable (sometimes yes/sometimes no) 'situational management case', and hoping everyone forgets it even happened. certain calls can dog a person for days weeks months years careers. just go look up best 10 or 20 calls ever made and worst 10 or 20 calls ever made.

and precedent to a situation mentioned above was set earlier than 2018.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/rookie-umpire-made-mistakes-alds-boot-world-series-article-1.386835

and sometimes from articles, maybe in more recent times, MLB in certain situations is looking for a little/slight bit of a tactfully worded mea culpa as part of situational management, maybe public/maybe behind closed doors.

[lawump]

On 1/8/2023 at 7:45 AM, UMP45 said:

It's how you do it that matters.

Exactly.  Not that anyone asked, but here's my two cents (of course, I'm not GOD and I'm not even a moderator on any umpire forum...so this is just my opinion):

Making a post that includes a "pot shot" at an umpire (whether they are MLB, NCAA, or some other level) is not appropriate on an umpiring message board.  All of us who are umpires know how hard it is to umpire.  Furthermore, we also know that even when we do our jobs nearly perfectly we still may be thrown under the bus by the media, coaches, and fans (See: Sam Holbrook infield fly and Sam Holbrook RLI calls).  So, to have pot-shots thrown at you by your own fellow umpires (when they, of all people, know what its like) is just wrong.  Furthermore, and most importantly, when non-umpires see umpires bashing a particular umpire those non-umpires' poor behavior is reinforced leading to more abuse being hurled at said umpire.  The first thing a non-umpire (i.e. a coach or player) is going to say if someone tells him to "stop it" is that he was "only doing what other umpires were also doing."  He is going to defend his behavior by saying "but a bunch of umpires were doing the same thing!"

Now to come and make a post about a specific play/game and write, "I think the umpire got it wrong" (or something similar)...in an attempt to learn or to share with others an umpire's mistake so others can avoid the same mistake is perfectly legitimate.  (As long as that post doesn't also include a gross over-generalization.  For instance, posting "Angel Hernandez today had a play at first that I think he got wrong.  Does anyone else agree and if so what can I do to avoid that mistake" is a perfectly legitimate post.  However, posting "that GOD-awful Angel Hernandez screwed up another one today!  How does he keep his job?  How could he have made that mistake?  What do you think he did wrong to end up making such a bad call," is an entirely inappropriate post on an umpire message board.  Go post that SH*# on ESPN.com or Fox Sports.)

For the record, this a two-way street.  There is a habit of upper-level umpires bashing Little League umpires every year when Little League takes over ESPN in August.  Its just wrong to do that.  Again, its one thing to state your opinion in a private conversation held in a locker room with your fellow umpires.  Its another thing to write it on a public forum or to say it in a public setting.  I, personally, have tried over the last couple of years to actually go out of my way (especially on Facebook) to praise Little League umpires who have made a good or great call in a televised game.  (In fact, I've become Facebook friends with a couple of them who happened to see my post and requested to "friend me".  I'm all the better for having "met" them (at least in cyberspace)).

Finally...and as an aside...MLB (and MiLB umpires) don't live in a vacuum.  They never bought into Richie Phillps' claim that all MLB umpires are exactly equal in ability.  They know who are the "studs", who are the "good umpires", and who constitutes "a guy who needs to retire".  FWIW, Angel has/had a lot of guys who really like him and respect him.  Just another indication (from the true experts on what it takes to umpire on the MLB level) that Angel is no where near being a horrible, terrible umpire.

 

[ArchAngel72]

OK Ok..

 

So THIS  here is "OK" ...  But do not mention you want the rookies coming up to be better than someone else..

 

Yeah.. NO!..

The spirit of the original comment was to wish them well and hope they do well. It was not meant to say someone else sucked. It was to say hey do better than "this" guy.  As that guy has not been the best example lately.  I think most of you can agree to that.

Anyway.. 

👋

 

[Thunderheads]

2 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

The spirit of the original comment was to wish them well and hope they do well. It was not meant to say someone else sucked. It was to say hey do better than "this" guy.  As that guy has not been the best example lately.  I think most of you can agree to that.

Anyway.. 

Soooo ...... if you walked up to 2 of your colleagues talking abut the new umpires joining your association, and you hear one of them say ..."I hope they do well, and that they're better than ArchAngel72"  ...   what does that mean?  Don't tell me for a second you're ok with that, because I know you're not (or you wouldn't be)

[JSam21]

19 hours ago, ArchAngel72 said:

OK Ok..

 

So THIS  here is "OK" ...  But do not mention you want the rookies coming up to be better than someone else..

 

Yeah.. NO!..

The spirit of the original comment was to wish them well and hope they do well. It was not meant to say someone else sucked. It was to say hey do better than "this" guy.  As that guy has not been the best example lately.  I think most of you can agree to that.

Anyway.. 

👋

 

 

17 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

Soooo ...... if you walked up to 2 of your colleagues talking abut the new umpires joining your association, and you hear one of them say ..."I hope they do well, and that they're better than ArchAngel72"  ...   what does that mean?  Don't tell me for a second you're ok with that, because I know you're not (or you wouldn't be)

I mean... When in doubt, double down right?

[ArchAngel72]

18 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

Soooo ...... if you walked up to 2 of your colleagues talking abut the new umpires joining your association, and you hear one of them say ..."I hope they do well, and that they're better than ArchAngel72"  ...   what does that mean?  Don't tell me for a second you're ok with that, because I know you're not (or you wouldn't be)

 

So if I walked up and overheard that I would kindly as possible ask embarrassed as all hell.  Where do I need improvement?

 

Because I do know this.  Until I get into district final games and state final games I never ever get anything more than a hey nice game for a talk through after the game.  In those instances we have several Sr umpires who have done Regionals and better, One of which did LLWS games this year and I thought he called games incredibly well.  But anywho yeah those guys know how to break down the end of the game meetings and draw out what they saw and where the corrections need to be made. 

I'm 8 years into this and I want to hear feedback still.   Why is it such a bad thing?  Hell I have gotten Lots of feedback here when I kicked things.  I do not mind. How the hell is anyone supposed to grow and get better if there is no feedback?

And yes this is a "public forum"  but there is a large difference between one of us saying MLB umpire XYZ really had a bad end of the year last year he had XXX many challenged and lost to replay calls.   Jeesh I hope these new guys do better than he did last year.  

Vs me saying wow I caught T-heads game last night and man His zone was all over the place he was calling it at about the size of a barnyard door. I wonder if the old lady was making his favorite meal last night and told him not to be late.

My point is a pro who's at the pro level should expect to be if they make a mistake the spotlight and have "bad press" and etc.   To me that's part of why he makes the large $$

You, me, 90% of the people here probably are not at the level he is.   I never expect to be frankly.  I do wish I had started doing this in my 20's though.  anyway point is there is a bit  of a social barrier there that puts them at a different level then you and I.

 

 

[tpatience]

MLB announced it earlier today. Erich Bacchus, Adam Beck, Nestor Ceja, Shane Livensparger, Nick Marley, Brennan Miller, Malachi Moore, Edwin Moscoso, Alex Tosi, and Junior Valentine. A few friends of mine, instructors and colleagues. Well deserved for all 

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, tpatience said:

Adam Beck, Nestor Ceja

Adam and Nestor were instructors of mine at TUS in 2015. Adam had just got promoted to AA during school. Both are great guys, but I really liked Adam. Always greeted me in formation warm ups each day with "How ya doin', Johnny?' I'd usually respond with, "I'll tell you after the Advil kicks in!"

2 funny stories about Adam from my time at school.

One day during one of my plate drills, Adam was one of the evaluators. I'd been having a pretty good day, but on this particular drill, I just hosed it. I was supposed to run up first base on a ball hit down the line. I don't even know what I did, but I jacked it all up. It happened to everyone from time to time, but this one was just bad. It was probably the 3rd week of school, so we all knew each other pretty well by then. After the drill, I walked up to Adam to get my feed back. He kind of just stood there and started to say, "well John, umm....". I held up my hand and said to him, "Adam, don't say anything, I just F*#Ked that one all up!" Adam started busting up laughing. I said, "I'll do better next time". I just left it at that and got back in line. And my next rep was really good.

Adam could hit fungo's like nobody I've ever seen! That guy would hit for 3 hours straight and hardly ever miss a beat. He was accurate and could place that ball on a dime most every time. It was unbelievable how good he was at that, and all the instructors knew it, too. He could hit a laser down each line inches from the bag, or fly ball within a foot or two of the foul line. Unreal.

 

Malachi and Junior were my instructors at Wendelstedt in 2013. Malachi was the first to greet me when I arrived at the hotel. I don't know why, but that always sticks in my mind. He was a good guy, nice, and always helpful.

I didn't have much interaction with Junior, just didn't cross his path too much. He would fall asleep holding the camera during classroom time, though. At that time classwork was held in the hotel in the morning, and then you would caravan it to the fields in the afternoon. The classroom was in one of the hotel halls. I was a long rectangular set up. The podium was in the middle where the instructors would speak, but if you sat on either end of the classroom, it was hard to see. To combat that, they set up 2 screens on either side that projected the instructor, and students on each end would look at the screens. An instructor would sit in a chair and man what looked like a Sony Handy-Cam filming the instructor that was speaking. That image would be projected on each screen. Whenever Junior would do it, he would nod off, the camera would drop down, and you'd just see the stage or feet of the instructor on the screens. I sat in the middle, so I had a birds eye view of him every time. Super professional. Good times.

[conbo61]

4 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Adam and Nestor were instructors of mine at TUS in 2015. Adam had just got promoted to AA during school. Both are great guys, but I really liked Adam. Always greeted me in formation warm ups each day with "How ya doin', Johnny?' I'd usually respond with, "I'll tell you after the Advil kicks in!"

2 funny stories about Adam from my time at school.

One day during one of my plate drills, Adam was one of the evaluators. I'd been having a pretty good day, but on this particular drill, I just hosed it. I was supposed to run up first base on a ball hit down the line. I don't even know what I did, but I jacked it all up. It happened to everyone from time to time, but this one was just bad. It was probably the 3rd week of school, so we all knew each other pretty well by then. After the drill, I walked up to Adam to get my feed back. He kind of just stood there and started to say, "well John, umm....". I held up my hand and said to him, "Adam, don't say anything, I just F*#Ked that one all up!" Adam started busting up laughing. I said, "I'll do better next time". I just left it at that and got back in line. And my next rep was really good.

Adam could hit fungo's like nobody I've ever seen! That guy would hit for 3 hours straight and hardly ever miss a beat. He was accurate and could place that ball on a dime most every time. It was unbelievable how good he was at that, and all the instructors knew it, too. He could hit a laser down each line inches from the bag, or fly ball within a foot or two of the foul line. Unreal.

 

Malachi and Junior were my instructors at Wendelstedt in 2013. Malachi was the first to greet me when I arrived at the hotel. I don't know why, but that always sticks in my mind. He was a good guy, nice, and always helpful.

I didn't have much interaction with Junior, just didn't cross his path too much. He would fall asleep holding the camera during classroom time, though. At that time classwork was held in the hotel in the morning, and then you would caravan it to the fields in the afternoon. The classroom was in one of the hotel halls. I was a long rectangular set up. The podium was in the middle where the instructors would speak, but if you sat on either end of the classroom, it was hard to see. To combat that, they set up 2 screens on either side that projected the instructor, and students on each end would look at the screens. An instructor would sit in a chair and man what looked like a Sony Handy-Cam filming the instructor that was speaking. That image would be projected on each screen. Whenever Junior would do it, he would nod off, the camera would drop down, and you'd just see the stage or feet of the instructor on the screens. I sat in the middle, so I had a birds eye view of him every time. Super professional. Good times.

Holy crud.  Your time at TUS was EIGHT years ago already?!?!?!  I remember following your daily posts here while you were there.

Getting old...

[JonnyCat]

2 hours ago, conbo61 said:

Holy crud.  Your time at TUS was EIGHT years ago already?!?!?!  I remember following your daily posts here while you were there.

Getting old...

I know!!!!! I can't believe it either. I'll be 60 this year. Damn you, Father Time!

Oh well, I can still lumber my fat ass around the bases when I umpire and play softball. At least I still think I can!