Windup position: is this legal?

[Kelly McNary]

I’m curious to know if this is a legal windup and pitch. I see no advantage gained by this, but the pitcher does lift his pivot foot high off the rubber before he puts it back down in front of the rubber to pitch. 
 

 

[ArchAngel72]

I am asking based off OP not an answer

I assumed a windup could step sideways or back with 1st move but not forward..

 

[ErichKeane]

This got me looking, and I only have NFHS 2022 in front of me.  However, the last sentence to 6-1-2 is:

"During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot"

Note that commas are in tact there, as they are in my manual.  I point that out, because it isn't clear to me whether it is parsed: "(step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward) and a step forward" OR "step forward, a step sideways, or (in a step backward and a step forward)".

That said, the last part of that seems to imply that this, and basically EVERY 'windup' position would be illegal, he's clearly 'lifting' his pivot foot, as does every single person in the windup. 

I Googled the OBR rule (5.07(a)(1)), and found they have similar language: " He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot" (note it doesn't allow 'sideways', but no definition/split line is apparent).

I suspect this is intended to allow a 'twist', BUT I've never in my life seen this called, and would likely allow the pitcher in the video above, simply because I know how the hole in front of dirt mounds can be (and there being no advantage).

Side note: ONE REALLY curious thing that I'd not picked up before, is that in OBR, if you disengage, your hands must go to your sides, else its illegal! (comment here: https://baseballrulesacademy.com/official-rule/mlb/rule-5-07a1/)

 

 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Kelly McNary said:

I’m curious to know if this is a legal windup and pitch. I see no advantage gained by this, but the pitcher does lift his pivot foot high off the rubber before he puts it back down in front of the rubber to pitch. 
 

 

IMG_2571.MOV

Assuming the pivot foot is in contact and repositions parallel in contact with the rubber I would judge him not "running into the pitch." 

Regarding the forward step of the free foot it is illegal in NCAA. I would consider it a repositioning step in OBR and leave it alone, but this is the problem with square windup pitchers who actually want to turn sideways to deliver. The free foot has to reposition and can be judged to step forward rather than sideways and the pivot foot has to lose contact with the rubber to turn sideways.

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, ErichKeane said:

 

Side note: ONE REALLY curious thing that I'd not picked up before, is that in OBR, if you disengage, your hands must go to your sides, else its illegal! (comment here: https://baseballrulesacademy.com/official-rule/mlb/rule-5-07a1/)

 

 

They have that wrong. He has to separate his hands at some point before taking the rubber again. It does not have to be as he disengages. The penalty is "do not do that"

[The Man in Blue]

Doesn't look like a windup to me.  Looks like he is standing behind the plate, stepping up to it quickly, and going into an illegal pitch from the stretch.  I can't see where the plate is exactly, but if you look at where his feet move and where he pitches from, he is pretty obviously standing behind the plate with both feet (not in contact with it) and stepping up.

He is stepping onto the rubber with his hands already together.

I see nothing legal about this.

 

[Senor Azul]

When describing the pitching motion for the windup position all three codes use the word may when listing what steps can be taken by the pitcher. Since the OP did not ask about a specific rule set and the video seems to be of a high-school age pitcher here’s the FED rule--

2020 NFHS rule 6-1

ART. 2 . . . During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.

***

In his motion to pitch from the windup, the pitcher may (but not must) step once backward or sideways, and must step once forward. As the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual phrases it, “The pivot foot may make only one step to become better situated for the pitch (optional) and may not then be reset.” In the video the pitcher’s adjustment step with his pivot foot was not extraordinary in any way. To answer the question--in the OP, the pitcher’s motion to pitch was legal.

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Doesn't look like a windup to me.  Looks like he standing behind the plate, stepping up to it quickly, and going into an illegal pitch from the stretch.  I can't see where the plate is exactly, but if you look at where his feet move and where he pitches from, he is pretty obviously standing behind the plate with both feet (not in contact with it) and stepping up.

He is stepping onto the rubber with his hands already together.

I see nothing legal about this.

 

The rubber is 6" wide. The pivot foot could be in contact and be repositioned and again be in contact. We don't enforce hands apart if a windup pitcher takes the rubber with hands together

[ErichKeane]

17 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

They have that wrong. He has to separate his hands at some point before taking the rubber again. It does not have to be as he disengages. The penalty is "do not do that"

Ah! Thank you very much!  THIS makes way more sense.

 

11 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

When describing the pitching motion for the windup position all three codes use the word may when listing what steps can be taken by the pitcher. Since the OP did not ask about a specific rule set and the video seems to be of a high-school age pitcher here’s the FED rule--

2020 NFHS rule 6-1

ART. 2 . . . During delivery, he may lift his non-pivot foot in a step forward, a step sideways, or in a step backward and a step forward, but he shall not otherwise lift either foot.

***

In his motion to pitch from the windup, the pitcher may (but not must) step once backward or sideways, and must step once forward. As the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual phrases it, “The pivot foot may make only one step to become better situated for the pitch (optional) and may not then be reset.” In the video the pitcher’s adjustment step with his pivot foot was not extraordinary in any way. To answer the question--in the OP, the pitcher’s motion to pitch was legal.

I'm glad to see the 2017 manual confirm my mental idea of what is allowed with the pivot foot, despite the rule not making that clear.

[maven]

Live longer, don't mess with this (unless, I guess, NCAA says no for their pitchers).

No rule (only interps) governs the rocker step, so the fact that it's "forward" is moot.

Note that the time of pitch is the first movement of the free foot.

[Kelly McNary]

Game played under OBR rules. 

[Senor Azul]

Why is the step forward with the free foot illegal in NCAA? George Demetriou says in his 2019-2020 edition of his College Baseball Rules Study Guide (p. 139):  “The pitcher may step forward with the free foot or he may step backward or sideward and then forward.” And here is the current rule which seems to say the same thing as Mr. Demetriou does--

2021-2022 NCAA rule 9-1

a. The Windup. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter with their pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate and other foot free. In the windup position, a pitcher is permitted to have their "free" foot on the pitcher's plate, in front of the pitcher's plate or off the side of the pitcher's plate. The pitcher may not take a second step toward home plate with either foot in the delivery of the pitch. From this position, any natural movement associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter commits the pitcher to pitch without interruption or alteration. The pitcher shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in the actual delivery of the ball to the batter, the pitcher may take one step backward or sideward and one step forward with the free foot.

[Senor Azul]

Since we now know that the rule set in the OP is OBR I would like to mention the perfect game that Don Larsen threw in the 1956 World Series. He chose to use a no-windup delivery in the game. There is video of his delivery where all he does from the windup position is take a step forward with his free foot and then he threw his pitch without any pumps or any other steps. Check it out.

[Jimurray]

26 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Why is the step forward with the free foot illegal in NCAA? George Demetriou says in his 2019-2020 edition of his College Baseball Rules Study Guide (p. 139):  “The pitcher may step forward with the free foot or he may step backward or sideward and then forward.” And here is the current rule which seems to say the same thing as Mr. Demetriou does--

2021-2022 NCAA rule 9-1

a. The Windup. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter with their pivot foot in contact with the pitcher's plate and other foot free. In the windup position, a pitcher is permitted to have their "free" foot on the pitcher's plate, in front of the pitcher's plate or off the side of the pitcher's plate. The pitcher may not take a second step toward home plate with either foot in the delivery of the pitch. From this position, any natural movement associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter commits the pitcher to pitch without interruption or alteration. The pitcher shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in the actual delivery of the ball to the batter, the pitcher may take one step backward or sideward and one step forward with the free foot.

Because the delivery step would be a "second step" forward. I argued against that interp here but was  outvoted:

Triple Play Umpires | Both are legal? | Facebook

And then Randy Bruns made an example of it being illegal in Video Bulletin #5 Illegal Pitching Motion - Wind up on Arbiter.

[Senor Azul]

I really did not pay close attention to the video in the OP until reading your post about a second step forward with the free foot—that jogged the old memory cells. I thought that the pitcher was standing behind the rubber and then stepped onto the rubber and made one step forward with his free foot. The only concern then would be was it a quick pitch or walking into the pitch?

If the pitcher was engaged, then he indeed took two steps forward with his free foot. The motion in the video would then be illegal. You would be right and I would be very wrong. I did not notice that until going back and watching much more closely. Mea culpa.

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, Senor Azul said:

I really did not pay close attention to the video in the OP until reading your post about a second step forward with the free foot—that jogged the old memory cells. I thought that the pitcher was standing behind the rubber and then stepped onto the rubber and made one step forward with his free foot. The only concern then would be was it a quick pitch or walking into the pitch?

If the pitcher was engaged, then he indeed took two steps forward with his free foot. The motion in the video would then be illegal. You would be right and I would be very wrong. I did not notice that until going back and watching much more closely. Mea culpa.

I'm only right in citing NCAA. I don't agree with their interp. Once you start calling this repositioning step a forward step you then have to look at any sideways step for any forward motion also and a lot of square windup pitchers who turn sideways in their delivery are guilty of minor forward motion with the free foot even though it's mostly sideways. IMHO the 2 step provision is to prevent 2 delivery steps.

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

The rubber is 6" wide. The pivot foot could be in contact and be repositioned and again be in contact. We don't enforce hands apart if a windup pitcher takes the rubber with hands together

Could ... but I'm not biting.  

Hands together was in reference to the fact that this looks like a quick pitch from the stretch to me, not a windup at all.

[Jimurray]

5 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

Could ... but I'm not biting.  

Hands together was in reference to the fact that this looks like a quick pitch from the stretch to me, not a windup at all.

We will have to ask the OP to dust off the rubber. But if you do have him off the rubber to start with it would be "time, don't take the rubber with your hands together" in OBR and the same thing in FED as it only happens at beginning levels and I usually don't balk it. It's just better to stop the QP.

[The Man in Blue]

4 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

We will have to ask the OP to dust off the rubber. But if you do have him off the rubber to start with it would be "time, don't take the rubber with your hands together" in OBR and the same thing in FED as it only happens at beginning levels and I usually don't balk it. It's just better to stop the QP.

If it is the way I am seeing it, the hands being together are the least of my worries.

It is an illegal pitch/balk in Fed to step on for a stretch with the hands already together, not a "don't do that."  It violates several provisions of Article 3, violation of which is an illegal pitch/balk.

ART. 3 . . . For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand.  His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of and parallel to the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made. During these preliminary motions and during the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

PENALTY (Arts. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

If it is the way I am seeing it, the hands being together are the least of my worries.

It is an illegal pitch/balk in Fed to step on for a stretch with the hands already together, not a "don't do that."  It violates several provisions of Article 3, violation of which is an illegal pitch/balk.

ART. 3 . . . For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand.  His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of and parallel to the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made. During these preliminary motions and during the set position until a delivery motion occurs, the pitcher may turn on his pivot foot or lift it in a jump turn to step with the non-pivot foot toward a base while throwing or feinting as outlined in 6-2-4 and 2-28-5, or he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate. In order to change to the wind-up position, he must first step clearly backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot first. After the pitcher has placed his pivot foot on the ground clearly behind the plate, he then has the right to throw or feint to a base the same as that of any other infielder.

PENALTY (Arts. 1, 2, 3): The ball is dead immediately when an illegal pitch occurs. If there is no runner, a ball is awarded the batter. If there is a runner, such illegal act is a balk. In both situations, the umpire signals dead ball.

 

 

 

You can balk it. I usually tell them don't do that. It happens with new/untrained pitchers. After you balk it you have to tell them not to take the rubber with hands together anyway.

[Senor Azul]

The OP, Kelly McNary, told us that the pitcher in the video is in a windup position. Now on our own we’re arguing it is a set position. If it is a windup position and if we are talking about FED instead of OBR (as the OP now tells us it is), it is legal in high school for a pitcher to engage the rubber with his hands already together. From the 2016 BRD (section 412, p. 276):

If a pitcher is simultaneously bringing both hands together in front of his body as he steps onto the pitcher’s plate, such movement is legal.

When he steps onto the pitcher’s plate with his hands together, if he drops one hand to his side, that is a balk.

2019 NFHS Case Book plays

6.1.2 Situation F:  With R3 on third base, F1 steps on the pitcher’s plate and his hands already together in front of his body. F1 then drops his pitching hand to his side and stops. RULING:  This is a balk and R3 is awarded home. F1 separated his hands without delivering the pitch.

6.1.2 Situation G:  From the windup position, F1 steps onto the pitcher’s plate with both hands together. As he moves his non-pivot leg behind the pitcher’s plate, he completely stops his motion. RULING:  Balk. This is an illegal pitch.

[Kelly McNary]

Thank you all for your input. I think there could be more coming. Maybe a correct interpretation will be given to us. Maybe it already has been done. Regardless, I appreciate everyone’s input!!

Kelly

[Jimurray]

11 minutes ago, Kelly McNary said:

Thank you all for your input. I think there could be more coming. Maybe a correct interpretation will be given to us. Maybe it already has been done. Regardless, I appreciate everyone’s input!!

Kelly

It has already been correctly interpeted by moi, @maven, @ErichKeane and a waffling @Senor Azul for OBR. 🙂

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, Jimurray said:

You can balk it. I usually tell them don't do that. It happens with new/untrained pitchers. After you balk it you have to tell them not to take the rubber with hands together anyway.

Depending on the level, I can live with a warning (not a "don't do that" infraction though).

[MadMax]

10 hours ago, Kelly McNary said:

I’m curious to know if this is a legal windup and pitch.

With no definitive evidence he is starting behind-&-not-in-contact-with the pitching plate, then it appears he’s atop it… thus, in contact with it… thus, if this is the windup we’re seeing… this is legal. 

[BigBlue4u]

The NFHS has changed its pitching rule for 2023.   Beginning in 2023, the only thing that matters is the position of the pivot foot.  If the pivot foot is parallel with the pitching plate, the pitcher is considered in a set position.  If the pitcher's pivot foot is not parallel with the pitcher's plate, he is considered to be in a windup position.  The non-pivot foot is of no significance.