Orange and white first base

[Guest BootstrapBill]

I hit a ground hall to the left of first. I sprint to the orange bag. second baseman is sprinting towards first. First base under hands it to the second baseman. They sprint through the white and orange both and collided with my and knocked me down. They beat me to first by a half a step. The ump called me out. I don’t see the point of the orange and white bag if they can do that. 

[noumpere]

The point is to *reduce* collisions, not to eliminate them entirely.

[cyclonehokiece]

I am having a hard time finding a way that having a double base or not necessarily prevents this collision.  It’s a footrace to the base and neither one is necessarily trying to stop on a dime on their bag.  Could the second baseman do more to peel off after touching, would have to see actual play.  I think as I am reading this it’s a train wreck.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Guest BootstrapBill said:

I hit a ground hall to the left of first. I sprint to the orange bag. second baseman is sprinting towards first. First base under hands it to the second baseman. They sprint through the white and orange both and collided with my and knocked me down. They beat me to first by a half a step. The ump called me out. I don’t see the point of the orange and white bag if they can do that. 

They have as much right to the bag as you do - if you can overrun the bag, why can't they?

As stated above, risk management is about reducing risk, not eliminating it...the safety bag, in its simplest form, is meant to give more real estate to each player to reduce collisions.

I'm frankly tired of hearing the mentality of "well, if it doesn't work 100% of the time why do it at all?"   There are an infinite number of measurements between 0 and 100%.

[flyingron]

You weren't obstructed, the fielder beat you to the bag.    The rule on the Double First Base merely says the fielder needs to make his play on the white part and you have to make your play on the orange.   Further, once you touch  first, the whole bag is fair game for both runners and fielders.

Here's the rules for this from FP (but most sets follow):

Sec 19. Double First Base
The Double First Base shall consist of a base in fair territory that is white in
color and a base in foul territory that is colored.

B. Whenever a play is being made on the batter-runner, the defense must use
the white portion and the batter-runner the colored portion.
1. If the batter-runner touches only the white portion when there is a
play being made at first base, it is treated the same as missing the
base. The batter-runner is out providing the defense appeals prior to
the batter-runner returning to first base. Once the runner returns to the
white or colored portion, no appeal can be made.
2. If the defense touches only the colored portion, it is treated the same
as being off the base.

[Guest BootstrapBill]

I have played on teams where when this happens the first baseman either slides into the white bag or dive and slap their glove on the white bag. In all of the rules in our city leagues and tournaments it says first can only touch white and batter only touch orange. Then it talks about foul balls over there and situations where they may touch the orange. They never mention this. Why not just add it to the rules? All I know there is a greater chance of injury with two people sprinting full speed into each other than stepping on their foot and sprain is an ankle. What about coed with a woman first base and a 220 lb man sprinting into her? 

[noumpere]

27 minutes ago, Guest BootstrapBill said:

I have played on teams where when this happens the first baseman either slides into the white bag or dive and slap their glove on the white bag. In all of the rules in our city leagues and tournaments it says first can only touch white and batter only touch orange. Then it talks about foul balls over there and situations where they may touch the orange. They never mention this. Why not just add it to the rules? All I know there is a greater chance of injury with two people sprinting full speed into each other than stepping on their foot and sprain is an ankle. What about coed with a woman first base and a 220 lb man sprinting into her? 

1) That's allowed, of course.  It's not required.

2) If that 's what the rules really say, then it's wrong.  F3 must touch the white to record an out; BR must touch orange to reach the base.  Neither precludes the other from going beyond the base.  (You could have INT or OBS in some instances, but not in your play.)

3) Stuff happens.

[beerguy55]

44 minutes ago, Guest BootstrapBill said:

Then it talks about foul balls over there and situations where they may touch the orange. They never mention this. Why not just add it to the rules?

Depending on what rules you are talking about there are several rule sets in baseball and softball that specifically mention the times it is acceptable/required for the runner/fielder to swap the orange/white bags.   In those rule sets that don't mention this, then it is not allowed...fielder gets white, runner gets orange.

For example - here are the Official Rules of Softball, for International play (eg. The Olympics).  FP=Fast Pitch...emphasis added by me.

Other rule sets may handle the exceptions differently.

 

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING RULES APPLY TO THE DOUBLE BASE:

a) A batted ball hitting the fair portion is declared fair, and a batted ball hitting the foul portion only is declared foul.

b) If a play is made at first base on any batted ball, or (FP ONLY) the batter runs on a dropped third strike, and the batter-runner touches only the fair portion, and if the defense appeals prior to the batter-runner returning to the fair portion of first base, the batter-runner is out. NOTE: This is treated the same as missing the base.

c) A defensive player must use only the fair portion of the base at all times. EXCEPTION: On any live ball play made from first base foul territory, the batter-runner and the defensive player may use either base. When the defensive player uses the foul portion of the double base, the batter-runner can run in fair territory and if hit by a throw from the foul side of first base, it would not be interference. If intentional interference is ruled, the batterrunner would be out. NOTE: The one meter line is doubled on throws from foul territory.

d) After over-running the base, the batter-runner must return to the fair portion.

e) On balls hit to the outfield when there is no play being made at the double base, the batter-runner may touch either portion of the base.

f) When tagging up on a fly ball, the fair portion must be used.

g) On an attempted pick-off play (FP ONLY) the runner must return to the fair portion.

h) Once a runner returns to the fair portion, should he stand on the foul portion only, it is considered not in contact with the base and the runner shall be called out, if

1. He is tagged with the ball, or

2. He stands on the foul portion of the base, while the pitcher has possession of the ball within the pitcher’s circle.

 

22 minutes ago, noumpere said:

All I know there is a greater chance of injury with two people sprinting full speed into each other than stepping on their foot and sprain is an ankle.

Yes, and a plane crash is deadlier than a car crash, but which one is more likely to happen.   The incident you speak about is rare.  When F3 is trying to catch a ball, and the batter/runner is coming down the line, all it takes is for a throw to be a little offline for the collision likelihood to increase exponentially...the safety bag reduces that, by having the runner and fielder an extra foot apart.   And yes, it reduces the chances of broken and sprain ankles, and torn Achilles tendons, and all the other foot injuries that can and do happen.  Far more common than collisions, and far more likely on the single base.

 

25 minutes ago, noumpere said:

What about coed with a woman first base and a 220 lb man sprinting into her? 

Any first baseman with brains in their head, man/woman/child, 100 pounds or 300 pounds, is aware of the runner trucking down the line and will/should make the appropriate play to compensate for that...they either slide into the base, hold up, or come at a different angle (and accept the risk of the runner being safe)...or, they willingly accept the risks of the collision to get the out.   It's part of any sport.

[Guest BootstrapBill]

Here’s our city rules. This is all it says. If you Google it there is not one sentence anywhere that says it’s okay for first base to run through and cross the white bag and knock the runner down. There is not one mention of that being okay anywhere. I wasted complaining about being out and I didn’t to the ump during the game. They could very easily add this to the rules as a scenario where it’s okay for the first baseman to knock you down by running across the orange bag. You said that I could run through the orange bag straight so why can’t first. For one, I’m staying in foul territory and never touched white. It should be in the rules. It is not clear at all. 
 

“On a play made on a batter/runner advancing to first base, the batter/runner must use only the orange portion of the base, and the fielder must only use the white portion of the base. After a batter/runner passes the first base, both the white and orange portions of the base become live. Exception: On a force out attempt from the foul side of first base, the defense and the batter/runner can use either the orange or the white portion of the base.”

 

Where does this say it’s okay for the first baseman to run across the orange bag. I’ve googled rules and looked at rules for our tournaments and it never mentions this. If it was written anywhere I wouldn’t need to ask. Someone earlier said the first baseman needed to sprint through it to get me out. Base runners don’t get to run through second or third and have to slide rather than run through. I think the first baseman should have that rule rather than running across the orange and hurting someone. 

[Guest BootstrapBill]

Beerguy55. In the rules and exceptions you posted I don’t see where it says it’s okay for first to run through both bags. To me this is a worse injury than spraining an ankle stepping on the first baseman’s foot. 

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, Guest BootstrapBill said:

Beerguy55. In the rules and exceptions you posted I don’t see where it says it’s okay for first to run through both bags. To me this is a worse injury than spraining an ankle stepping on the first baseman’s foot. 

I don't see where it says it's NOT OK.

That is the rule you should be looking for.  The rule book can't generate an exhaustive list of everything that's allowed...it can, and tries to, create a list of what's NOT allowed....or what is required.

More specifically, you should be looking for a rule that requires the first baseman to hold up...it's not there.  Because they don't want it there.

Now, collisions at home plate, and barrel slides at second base happened for over 100 years before they decided to change the rules.

If enough dangerous collisions happen at first, MAYBE that rule will be changed too...but for now, you're complaining about something that just doesn't happen very often.   You can't eliminate 100% of the risk of the game.  There are incidental collisions that are going to happen...and some of them will be dangerous.  

You can keep arguing a losing argument, or learn something.  Your choice.

[Guest BootstrapBill]

I agree but it very specifically uses the word that the base runner only touches a range and first base only touches white. It only lists one or reasons when it would be okay to touch the other base. Why not just say the first baseman can run through the base and touch orange. Your rule mentions EXCEPTION. And it lists one. That sounds like only one exception. 

[Guest BootstrapBill]

You said I should look for rule that says for the first baseman to hold up. The rule you post said “the defensive players must use the fair portion of the base at ALL times and then lists an exception. Not this one. Sounds like they are saying there is only one exception for first baseman to touch orange. I’m not mad I was out. I’m mad they have a rule that says they cannot cross to the orange bag and yet they don’t list when they can.

[Velho]

Bill - did the first baseman touch the orange or white base for the out?

[flyingron]

The rule doesn't say they have to stay on the orange bag.  It says they must make the play at first on the orange bag.   Once they put you out by touching the orange bag, the rest of the base is open for use.   Nothing precludes them from going into foul territory either (on or off the bag).

 

[Guest BootstrapBill]

50 minutes ago, Velho said:

Bill - did the first baseman touch the orange or white base for the out?

They touched white as I was touching orange and they continued through the orange. It would be very easy for them to say if the first baseman touches white he can continue on and collide with the runner on orange. 

[beerguy55]

57 minutes ago, Guest BootstrapBill said:

You said I should look for rule that says for the first baseman to hold up. The rule you post said “the defensive players must use the fair portion of the base at ALL times and then lists an exception. Not this one. Sounds like they are saying there is only one exception for first baseman to touch orange. I’m not mad I was out. I’m mad they have a rule that says they cannot cross to the orange bag and yet they don’t list when they can.

The rule is about what side of the base the first baseman is required to touch to make the out.  Period.   And, consequently, what portion of the bag the runner must touch to be safe.

The rule does not dictate where the first baseman may or may not run after touching the proper side of the bag.  The rule only concerns itself with which half of the base the fielder and runner are required to touch to fulfill the requirements of safe or out.  Nothing more, nothing less.

First baseman can touch all the bases if he wants, and then do cartwheels in center field.  But if he does not touch the fair portion of first base then the runner will be safe.

As long as you are not obstructed from getting TO the base, not past it, there's no violation.

Once the proper side of the base has been touched by the fielder for the out OR once the runner passes first base, then the requirements surrounding the safety bag are lifted, and, in most cases, the orange bag no longer exists...it's essentially just a place in foul territory beside first base.*

*SOME rulesets do allow the runner to return to either bag after rounding first on a hit to the outfield, and allow F3 to touch either bag on appeal plays - they are the exception.

**Also - I have run across at least one tournament where the fielder was not allowed to touch the orange side of the base ever, and the runner would be safe even if they were touching the white as well - but again, that is an exception (and a silly rule...which is why almost nobody does it)...and even that would not disqualify a F3 from touching the white half and then stepping over the orange half.

 

 

 

 

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, Guest BootstrapBill said:

They touched white as I was touching orange and they continued through the orange. It would be very easy for them to say if the first baseman touches white he can continue on and collide with the runner on orange. 

Different set of rules, under Interference and/or Obstruction.   Those rules are mostly dictated by the status of the ball, and the intent of the player.   As far as certain collisions, the specific rules surrounding force plays, bona fide slides and collisions at the plate otherwise place the onus on the runner, not the fielder, to avoid the collision.   

You don't want that at first base.

 

[Velho]

39 minutes ago, Guest BootstrapBill said:

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Bill - did the first baseman touch the orange or white base for the out?

They touched white as I was touching orange and they continued through the orange. It would be very easy for them to say if the first baseman touches white he can continue on and collide with the runner on orange. 

I can understand you didn't enjoy the contact but it is legal and happens at all levels of baseball.

[JonnyCat]

8 hours ago, Guest BootstrapBill said:

I hit a ground hall to the left of first. I sprint to the orange bag. second baseman is sprinting towards first. First base under hands it to the second baseman. They sprint through the white and orange both and collided with my and knocked me down. They beat me to first by a half a step. The ump called me out. I don’t see the point of the orange and white bag if they can do that. 

I understand what you are saying about safety, but here are a few things to consider, and a suggestion on how to maybe fix it.

I'm assuming you're talking about rec league softball. Is that correct? I play rec league softball and have now for over 30 years in So Cal in many different locations and leagues, both men's and co-ed. In truth, this type of play shouldn't happen. We all have day jobs and I'm not risking a collision just to make an play, either as a base runner or a fielder. I play mostly first base, and I'm never going to sprint over the bag and get into a collision with a fielder running at full speed. Conversely, I will give myself up as a base runner rather than risking injury at any base. I've seen too many injuries from knuckleheads going full speed to make a play. I'm not getting paid, nor getting any younger, to risk injury and recovery time. I'm there to have fun. Truth be told, the fielder shouldn't be running over the bag in that situation. However, you can also give yourself up, too. Read the play and avoid potential injury if you can. I'm not saying it's right, but there is no glory in being safe in a beer league softball game, and having an injury that requires surgery, time off from work, a cast, etc. 

With that being said, this type of play will happen, albeit rarely. An umpire could make a case for malicious contact and eject the offender. Unfortunately, most rec league umpires are not very experienced or very well trained. And frankly, an infraction may not have occurred in your situation. Should the collision have happened? No, it's just plain stupid. But collisions do sometimes happen.

In the league's that I play in, we use modified USSSA rules. The local complex adds in some safety rules. It may be worth it to talk to the director and see if a rule change can be made. Explain your situation, and perhaps offer some suggestions on possible changes. I have done that, and the complex has actually made some changes over the years. The powers that be are all about safety and keeping both their liability and insurance low.

I would start there and see what happens. However, avoid a collision if you can.

[Guest BootstrapBill]

Thank you JonnyCat. You’re right. It’s rec league. I thought I would be out by a smidge but I was looking straight ahead and sprinting. I figured they would touch first a little before me. I just wasn’t expecting them to continue on into me. I’m 68 years old and pitching for 30 year olds. We won the game. I got a Glioblastoma brain tumor last year and had surgery. I’m continuing to play. I just didn’t want someone to run full speed into me when they could have used the white bag as brakes. Next time I guess I either need to accept getting slammed into or I should dive to the bag. 

[JonnyCat]

14 minutes ago, Guest BootstrapBill said:

Thank you JonnyCat. You’re right. It’s rec league. I thought I would be out by a smidge but I was looking straight ahead and sprinting. I figured they would touch first a little before me. I just wasn’t expecting them to continue on into me. I’m 68 years old and pitching for 30 year olds. We won the game. I got a Glioblastoma brain tumor last year and had surgery. I’m continuing to play. I just didn’t want someone to run full speed into me when they could have used the white bag as brakes. Next time I guess I either need to accept getting slammed into or I should dive to the bag. 

I understand. I just stopped trusting the other players to do the right thing. I've seen too many injuries. I'll just give myself up rather that getting hurt. I stopped sliding years ago. (Maybe even decades!)

I'm not very fast either, so I won't take the extra base unless I know the play won't be close. I'm either way safe, or way out! 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Guest BootstrapBill said:

Thank you JonnyCat. You’re right. It’s rec league. I thought I would be out by a smidge but I was looking straight ahead and sprinting. I figured they would touch first a little before me. I just wasn’t expecting them to continue on into me. I’m 68 years old and pitching for 30 year olds. We won the game. I got a Glioblastoma brain tumor last year and had surgery. I’m continuing to play. I just didn’t want someone to run full speed into me when they could have used the white bag as brakes. Next time I guess I either need to accept getting slammed into or I should dive to the bag. 

I stopped playing a couple of sports against people half my age for that reason...they don't know how to turn it off...and you're dealing with a lot of alpha males trying to impress SOMEBODY.

At that point, I give up the base...I gotta work in the morning, and as much as I love the game, the base isn't worth it.   Even if I was single I'd have no delusions of scoring with the chick in row three of the bleachers...the idiots can try for it.  Like said above, I can't trust them to let up, so I will.

Even in rec league, as a catcher, I would have guys try to run through me on plays at the plate...I'm a big guy, so most of them just bounced...I'm the unmovable object...they're NOT the unstoppable force...then they get up and say "I guess that was a bad idea"...and then they forget the lesson a few days later.

 

 

[aaluck]

On 3/21/2022 at 4:05 PM, Guest BootstrapBill said:

Next time I guess I either need to accept getting slammed into or I should dive to the bag. 

First, glad to hear your doing something you enjoy... You have come to the right place for that as almost everyone on here does not make a living being an umpire, we (mainly) love doing it.

As to your debate with @beerguy55, this is no different from a throw that drags the first baseman into the runner, sometimes bad things happen. Not to speak for him but but even IF there was a rule on the defense overrunning the white bag, it would not prevent a collision from happening.  It will still happen in situations like your OP.  Now there would be a penalty (whatever that may be) but it will not prevent it--although I will say it may lessen it as there is now a penalty for such contact.  We know these rules work.  We have seen it in the NFL with the helmet contact, we see it in baseball with not trucking the catcher--did it completely eliminate it, no--but it has DRASTICALLY reduced it.  Why? Because there is a severe penalty.

Maybe lobby for a local rule on defensive player having to stay in fair territory on any play at 1st base.....  Problem solved.

[Mussgrass]

If that rule is in place then what happens if a fair ball or a thrown ball gets deflected into foul territory and a fielder chases after it? Legal collisions are going to happen even with rules to prevent collisions.