8th-why not IR

[dumbdumb]

9:44-10:44--this is 8th inning. why is IR not used for both by crew chief. looks like both were the same. one put arm out, one put leg out or one pulled arm back and one pulled leg back. what if partner has more information. what signal does he give, like the PU giving i got more information on pulled foot or swipe tag that i read about on here. why not a conference to make sure he was hit number one, and whether he moved into ball number two for both. aren't these just way too close like the calls at second base from Harvard at miami game topic post, to let go without IR or conferencing help with crew chief initiating IR if coach does not or has run out of requests. and at 13:12 should PU be more towards 3BL extended like an outfield throw from right field. just trying to use these for training/learning purposes for all levels, not so much correct or incorrect as the call may be.

 

[SH0102]

Great call on elbow, definitely intentionally got hit.

And to answer your question, leg is a lot harder, when you step and plant, it’s not easy to move them out of the way. Sticking elbow out is 1000x easier to judge and call

[Senor Azul]

I would say that umpire has a firm grasp of the college rule on hit by pitch.

2021-2022 NCAA rule 8

Batter Becomes Base Runner

SECTION 2. The batter becomes a base runner:

d. When hit by a pitched ball at which the individual is not attempting to strike, the ball is immediately dead;

1) A batter may not make a movement to intentionally get hit by the pitch, regardless of the location of the pitch. He must also avoid being hit whenever possible, unless the pitch is within the batter's box occupied by the batter. If the batter's action is deemed intentional, then:

a) If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or if the batter moves to intentionally get hit or freezes to allow a pitch that is not within the batter's box to hit him, the ball is dead, it shall be called a strike and the batter is not awarded first base.

b) If the ball is within the batter's box occupied by the batter and the batter makes no movement to intentionally get hit by the pitch, the batter is awarded first base. In other words, a batter who freezes inside the batter's box and who is hit by the pitch shall be awarded first base.

[umpstu]

2 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Great call on elbow, definitely intentionally got hit.

And to answer your question, leg is a lot harder, when you step and plant, it’s not easy to move them out of the way. Sticking elbow out is 1000x easier to judge and call

 

2 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

9:44-10:44--this is 8th inning. why is IR not used for both by crew chief. looks like both were the same. one put arm out, one put leg out or one pulled arm back and one pulled leg back. what if partner has more information. what signal does he give, like the PU giving i got more information on pulled foot or swipe tag that i read about on here. why not a conference to make sure he was hit number one, and whether he moved into ball number two for both. aren't these just way too close like the calls at second base from Harvard at miami game topic post, to let go without IR or conferencing help with crew chief initiating IR if coach does not or has run out of requests. and at 13:12 should PU be more towards 3BL extended like an outfield throw from right field. just trying to use these for training/learning purposes for all levels, not so much correct or incorrect as the call may be.

 

The plate umpire is Steve Mattingly.  I think he knows where he needs to be.  As far as the hbp, the batter hit the ball with his elbow.  With the knee the ball was pretty far in the batter's box when it hit him.  That is the key.  Did he hit the ball or did the ball hit him?  Steve is a CWS umpire.  If you ever get a chance to go to a clinic he is working you will learn a lot and he loves teaching.  It really shows.

[dumbdumb]

9 hours ago, umpstu said:

 

The plate umpire is Steve Mattingly.  I think he knows where he needs to be.  As far as the hbp, the batter hit the ball with his elbow.  With the knee the ball was pretty far in the batter's box when it hit him.  That is the key.  Did he hit the ball or did the ball hit him?  Steve is a CWS umpire.  If you ever get a chance to go to a clinic he is working you will learn a lot and he loves teaching.  It really shows.

okay. but what about IR or a conference just to make sure (since we are not mind readers on intent of anything), since coach is questioning call from dugout, just like at 2nd base on other game. and if a partner has other information,

just what is the other information sign, that a partner would give here, just like that other information sign (whatever that is, on help with a pulled foot or swipe tag at first )and if partner has that it was not intentional or did not have him getting hit to start with. its not like batter got whacked with the ball and catcher did not catch it, he may be faking being hit to start with like derek jeter play. then why did they IR other 2 plays in Miami then. i will assume that umpire at this level knew what he was doing also. IR, getting help or conferencing is to make sure you got a close judgment ruling (right or wrong correct).

and-- the 13:12 part of the question was not answered as far as being more towards 3BL extended, and i will add (if possible-since plays may not develop as originally planned) and you do the best you can. just for training/development purposes for others, because if being more towards 3BL extended in this situation is wrong, then being exactly where he was would be correct and the mental picture can help with proper positioning to make the best call possible, even though the perfect position is not always possible either. hey, a home run on every at bat is does not happen either as the analytics will prove.

[BLWizzRanger]

9 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

2021-2022 NCAA rule 8

Batter Becomes Base Runner

SECTION 2. The batter becomes a base runner:

d. When hit by a pitched ball at which the individual is not attempting to strike, the ball is immediately dead;

1) A batter may not make a movement to intentionally get hit by the pitch, regardless of the location of the pitch. He must also avoid being hit whenever possible, unless the pitch is within the batter's box occupied by the batter. If the batter's action is deemed intentional, then:

a) If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or if the batter moves to intentionally get hit or freezes to allow a pitch that is not within the batter's box to hit him, the ball is dead, it shall be called a strike and the batter is not awarded first base.

b) If the ball is within the batter's box occupied by the batter and the batter makes no movement to intentionally get hit by the pitch, the batter is awarded first base. In other words, a batter who freezes inside the batter's box and who is hit by the pitch shall be awarded first base.

Thank you Mr Senior Azul for this.  I definitely like this definition more than NFHS one.  I can see now where some of the more experienced umps here use the 'hey, if the pitcher misses that bad and the pitch is in the box, I am awarding the base if hit no matter how much the batter tried to get hit' ruling.  It just didn't sit right with me that there would be no attempt to avoid the pitch.  I would still have an issue with what I experienced with a batter moving into the pitch that hit him in the lower left back (RH hitter) but those are my demons. 

[Thunderheads]

absolutely stuck his elbow out, but ...not sure that was a strike, but I like it!

[Richvee]

10 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

absolutely stuck his elbow out, but ...not sure that was a strike, but I like it!

NCAA- If he stuck his elbow out it's a strike...doesn't need to be in the zone. 

[Thunderheads]

7 minutes ago, Richvee said:

NCAA- If he stuck his elbow out it's a strike...doesn't need to be in the zone. 

WOW!  Now THAT is called deterrence!  

[Richvee]

3 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

WOW!  Now THAT is called deterrence!  

[Velho]

1 minute ago, Thunderheads said:

9 minutes ago, Richvee said:

NCAA- If he stuck his elbow out it's a strike...doesn't need to be in the zone. 

WOW!  Now THAT is called deterrence!  

Double WOW!. I didn't catch that in the first read of the rules.

11 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

2021-2022 NCAA rule 8

Batter Becomes Base Runner

SECTION 2. d. 1) If the batter's action is deemed intentional, then:

a) If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or if the batter moves to intentionally get hit or freezes to allow a pitch that is not within the batter's box to hit him, the ball is dead, it shall be called a strike and the batter is not awarded first base.

b) If the ball is within the batter's box occupied by the batter and the batter makes no movement to intentionally get hit by the pitch, the batter is awarded first base. In other words, a batter who freezes inside the batter's box and who is hit by the pitch shall be awarded first base.

Judgement call in this case is whether the pitch was "within the batter's box" to say if it was a strike or a ball.

[Richvee]

4 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

WOW!  Now THAT is called deterrence!  

NCAA changed it a few years ago. They saw the increase in intentional HBP on the rise. Teams were actually having contests as to who could get hiy more. What was there to lose? If you get caught it's a ball....So NCAA made what I think was one of the best rule revisions in recent memory. 

[Thunderheads]

3 minutes ago, Richvee said:

NCAA changed it a few years ago. They saw the increase in intentional HBP on the rise. Teams were actually having contests as to who could get hiy more. What was there to lose? If you get caught it's a ball....So NCAA made what I think was one of the best rule revisions in recent memory. 

for some reason, I saw a rash of that in HS ball last year, ... was pissing me off!  This would be a great addition to the NFHS rules!

[Richvee]

5 minutes ago, Velho said:

Double WOW!. I didn't catch that in the first read of the rules.

Judgement call in this case is whether the pitch was "within the batter's box" to say if it was a strike or a ball.

No....the only judgment is did he intentionally move to allow the ball to hit him.....He can FREEZE in the box, and get hit and take his base...any movement towards the ball to get hit...in the box, or anywhere else is a strike.   

[Velho]

19 minutes ago, Richvee said:

No....the only judgment is did he intentionally move to allow the ball to hit him.....He can FREEZE in the box, and get hit and take his base...any movement towards the ball to get hit...in the box, or anywhere else is a strike. 

That's not how I'm reading the rule as posted by @Senor Azul but I could be wrong (I'm only a small town bird lawyer after all). Here's me though process:

11 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

If the batter's action is deemed intentional, then:

a) If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter, or if the batter moves to intentionally get hit or freezes to allow a pitch that is not within the batter's box to hit him, the ball is dead, it shall be called a strike and the batter is not awarded first base.

My read is that it's only a strike if it's "not within the batter's box". Are you reading it as "if the batter moves to A) intentionally get hit, or B) freezes to allow a pitch that is not within the batter's box to hit him". In other words the "not within the box" only applies on a freeze?

11 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

b) If the ball is within the batter's box occupied by the batter and the batter makes no movement to intentionally get hit by the pitch, the batter is awarded first base. In other words, a batter who freezes inside the batter's box and who is hit by the pitch shall be awarded first base.

Overall, my initial interpretation:

1) Intentionally get hit with pitch not within batters box = Strike

2) Unintentionally get hit with pitch (including freezing) within the batters box = Awarded 1B

3) Inferred: Intentionally getting hit with pitch not within batters box that is not in strike zone = Ball

 

Thanks for indulging me.

[humanbackstop19]

There is one big difference in the 2 HPB sequences, which helps the judgement of the intentionality by the hitter.  Simply look at the hitters' eyes.  In the first HBP on the elbow, the hitter watches the pitch hit him - easy call - he's staying (strike called).  In the 2nd HBP though, the batter turns his head away almost towards the backstop.  Here, "in my judgement" the batter is protecting himself.  That, and the pitch being inside the batters box, he's going to first base.  If the batter is in "protective" mode, it's hard to justify they intentionally allowed the pitch to hit them.  When they turn their head to the backstop away from the pitch, they are protecting themselves. 

[Richvee]

35 minutes ago, Velho said:

That's not how I'm reading the rule as posted by @Senor Azul but I could be wrong (I'm only a small town bird lawyer after all). Here's me though process:

My read is that it's only a strike if it's "not within the batter's box". Are you reading it as "if the batter moves to A) intentionally get hit, or B) freezes to allow a pitch that is not within the batter's box to hit him". In other words the "not within the box" only applies on a freeze?

Overall, my initial interpretation:

1) Intentionally get hit with pitch not within batters box = Strike

2) Unintentionally get hit with pitch (including freezing) within the batters box = Awarded 1B

3) Inferred: Intentionally getting hit with pitch not within batters box that is not in strike zone = Ball

 

Thanks for indulging me.

Break it down this way.

1.tells us he has to avoid being hit unless it's in the batter's box he occupies. 

Now, (a) references 3 instances when the pitch hits the batter and it is called a strike

 1. If the ball is in the strike zone when it touches the batter  OR

2. If the batter moved to intentionally get hit....OR

3. freezes to allow a pitch to hit him that is not in the strike zone. 

Notice no mention of intentionally getting hit in the batter's  box. There's no distinction. It's only if he moves to intentionally get hit.

(b) deals specifically with a batter freezing in the box and getting hit in the box...This is a base award. 

 

 

[Velho]

@Richvee Thanks. Fair enough. I can follow that's how it's applied. It could be written more clearly, imo since the ambiguity leaves it open, especially for those who believes a hbp fully in the box should be a base award regardless of batter's actions.

Again, thanks for taking the time.

[Richvee]

23 minutes ago, Velho said:

@Richvee Thanks. Fair enough. I can follow that's how it's applied. It could be written more clearly, imo since the ambiguity leaves it open, especially for those who believes a hbp fully in the box should be a base award regardless of batter's actions.

Again, thanks for taking the time.

It actually makes it easier on us. All we're judging is intent.....oh..and ball position if the batter freezes. I wish FED would at least think about similar language about freezing in the box. 

[Velho]

9 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I wish FED would at least think about similar language about freezing in the box. 

What's the FED rule?

[Senor Azul]

2019 and 2020 NCAA Baseball Rules Changes

NCAA rule 8-2d-1 To penalize the batter with a strike and not award first base if, in the judgement of the umpire, the batter makes an intentional movement to be hit by a pitch, regardless of where the pitch is located.

Rationale To provide guidance in enforcing the hit by pitch rule and to deter batters from attempting to be hit by the pitch. “Freezing” by a batter is not considered making an intentional movement. A batter who freezes inside the batter’s box and who is hit by a pitch shall be awarded first base.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

What's the FED rule?

7-3-4 Batter shall not

Permit a pitched ball to touch him.

The batter remains at bat (pitch is a ball or strike)unless pitch was 4th ball or third strike. 

8-1-d(1)A batter becomes a runner....

if he permits the pitched ball to touch him, (7-3-4), or, if the umpire calls the pitched ball a strike, the hitting of the batter is disregarded except that the ball is dead.  It is a strike or ball depending on the location of the pitch. 

 

It's ill defined. the word permit is the cause of the problem. Is turning you shoulders inward when a curve is coming at you permitting the ball to hit you? maybe the kid's got a good curve and the batter needs to hang in to the last second to see if it breaks over the plate. If it doesn't break and hits the batter, did he permit it to hit him? he was waiting for the break . 

I think NCAA did a great job of clarifying this. FED...it's usually a $h*t show either way you call it when a curveball lightly plunks a kid on the shoulder who just turns the shoulders in. 

[Senor Azul]

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 7.3.4 Situation D:  B1 is at bat with a two-ball, no strike count. The batter is fooled by the pitch and did not permit the ball to hit him. The pitch hits B1 in the shoulder. The batter made no other movement. RULING:  B1 is awarded first base.

2005 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations SITUATION 11: F1 throws a fastball that tails down the middle of the batter’s box. The pitch freezes B1, who subsequently is hit by the pitch. RULING: The ball is dead. It will be umpire judgment as to whether B1 permitted the pitch to hit him. If, in the judgment of the plate umpire, B1 could not react to the pitch, he will be awarded first base. If the plate umpire judges that B1 allowed the pitch to hit him, a ball will be awarded to B1’s count and he will remain at bat. (7-3-4, 5-1-1a, 8-1-1d Exception)

From the 2016 BRD (section 84, p. 75):

FED Official Interpretation:  McNeely:  Generally speaking, the batter will be awarded first unless he tries to get hit by the pitch. He may not permit the pitch to hit him, but:  “Movement to avoid the pitch may or may not be such an indication.”

[Richvee]

2005 interp is exactly why this rule is vague and causes issues. “ fastball tails down  the middle of the batters box.”  
 
They want me judge( guess)  if he froze or permitted? Now you’re asking me to evaluate talent as well. Did he freeze because he knows he getting hit and getting a base ( permit). Or did he freeze because there’s a fastball coming at his thigh and he’s scared $ h* tless?  

[noumpere]

19 minutes ago, Richvee said:

2005 interp is exactly why this rule is vague and causes issues. “ fastball tails down  the middle of the batters box.”  
 
They want me judge( guess)  if he froze or permitted? Now you’re asking me to evaluate talent as well. Did he freeze because he knows he getting hit and getting a base ( permit). Or did he freeze because there’s a fastball coming at his thigh and he’s scared $ h* tless?  

In FED speak, permit means "had a chance to get out of the way but chose not to".  Helps with the interp.  And, no matter how it's defined, there will always be judgment required.