Force3 V3--how's the felt impact protection?

[Recontra]

Just got a new V2 Defender mask to replace my original V1 (starting to rust), and it's a flipping awesome improvement over the original (much lighter, better harness, more comfortable, like the leather on the chin). I also have an original Force3 V1 Kevlar chest protector purchased the first year they came out. No "blast shield." Never been hurt with it, but it definitely feels like slap to the chest when hit--no pain or injury. I love how the Force3 looks under a shirt. But I confess that h.s. varsity, Legion, and fall college ball I grab for my 15" Douglas 3 panel hard shell. But I'd love to go back to the Force3 if the V3 has gotten better at felt impact severity. You get hit by an 85 mph pitch on the nipple with my original F3 V-1, and you're possibly in for a fairly serious titty-twisting :-). It'll go away, and no injuries--just doesn't feel good when it happens. You take a 90+ mph shot to my Douglas hard-shell, and you don't feel a thing. 

So, for any of you have tried both the original Force3 V-1 and the V-3 (or who have taken shots with the V-3), whaddya think? Hard to drop $279 if it's not going to be meaningfully better than the V-1 chest protector. But I honestly would drop $279 if the protector has been meaningfully improved. I searched the forums and couldn't find anything. Thanks if you have an informed opinion.

[kylehutson]

I have the V2 and the most I've felt was a little surprised - "oh, I felt that", but nothing that would even make me nervous on the next pitch. I bring out the v2 *for* the college and other higher-level games. I won't argue that it is pricey, and probably not worth the 4x I paid for my other CP (Schutt/Adams HDX), but it does make me look good. 

[grayhawk]

I have two friends that got bruised after taking shots in their V2. I went back to the System 7 after that.

[Razzer]

I am still using a V1 but with Wilson Gold breast plate with the gap protection and T-Hooks which work great.

I also changed out the shoulder caps from the Schutt which are very nice

[wolfe_man]

It's been said before, but I don't think it is more true than when talking F3 CP's - wear it tight!  If you leave any space, that's why you bruise. You have to wear it tight to avoid the issues. I've tried V1 and V3.  I'm sorry, but I just don't like the fit on me, but that's just me. The F3 mask and shins are great, but I just can't get comfortable in the CP.  The only shots I've taken in them did not hurt, but were more surprising I guess. You know you've been hit, but it doesn't necessarily hurt.  The V3 is a huge improvement to the V1, but that new center chest blast shield is really wide and takes some working with to get it to form to you and stay there (and I'm a 46/48 jacket for what it's worth).

I think it's a very good CP, but I don't think it's better than the All Star CPU4000, Gold, Platinum, Douglas, Schutt/Adams, etc.  It has it's place and it's followers, I guess I just can't see the value for the cost when there are much more affordable, and equally if not better, chest protectors available.

Bottom line is find what you like and makes you comfortable and roll with it.  For me, right now it's the Gold, but I'll be honest - I'm missing my Douglas some.  Looking forward to the new All Star product also.

[umpstu]

2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

It's been said before, but I don't think it is more true than when talking F3 CP's - wear it tight!  If you leave any space, that's why you bruise. You have to wear it tight to avoid the issues. I've tried V1 and V3.  I'm sorry, but I just don't like the fit on me, but that's just me. The F3 mask and shins are great, but I just can't get comfortable in the CP.  The only shots I've taken in them did not hurt, but were more surprising I guess. You know you've been hit, but it doesn't necessarily hurt.  The V3 is a huge improvement to the V1, but that new center chest blast shield is really wide and takes some working with to get it to form to you and stay there (and I'm a 46/48 jacket for what it's worth).

I think it's a very good CP, but I don't think it's better than the All Star CPU4000, Gold, Platinum, Douglas, Schutt/Adams, etc.  It has it's place and it's followers, I guess I just can't see the value for the cost when there are much more affordable, and equally if not better, chest protectors available.

Bottom line is find what you like and makes you comfortable and roll with it.  For me, right now it's the Gold, but I'll be honest - I'm missing my Douglas some.  Looking forward to the new All Star product also.

I hope i like the new All Star chest protector when it finally arrives.  Wish they had a sweet sales price for the shin guards, would have bought them as well.  Been wearing the F3 shin guards since they first came out and think it's time to replace them with some new ones.

[Recontra]

Thanks for all the replies. Thanks also for the references to the new All Star hard shell. Was ready to hit "Buy" at ump-attire for the V3, and then linked to the forum posts on the new All Star coming out in the fall. I guess I can wait to find out which I'll prefer--that new All Star might be the cat's meow. No offense to OutWest (don't know anything about them), I just dig ump-attire's customer service (as well as their riveting videos:  "This is the official 2 minute review of the . . . !" :-). I've probably watched every one of them over the years.  They've earned my loyalty--even if I could occasionally save some coins elsewhere. Whatever I end up getting, I know where I'll buy it.

Again, thanks for your replies. Sounds like the V3 is a solid upgrade over the V1 and that the thicker "blast plates" have improved perceived impact severity even over the V2--I know I'd be happy with it----just not sure I might not be potentially even happier with that new guy coming out in a couple of months. Might have to shoot Santa a line, that dude always brings me something that's on my list every year--it's like he can read my mind!  LOL.

[JimKirk]

7 hours ago, Recontra said:

Thanks for all the replies. Thanks also for the references to the new All Star hard shell. Was ready to hit "Buy" at ump-attire for the V3, and then linked to the forum posts on the new All Star coming out in the fall. I guess I can wait to find out which I'll prefer--that new All Star might be the cat's meow. No offense to OutWest (don't know anything about them), I just dig ump-attire's customer service (as well as their riveting videos:  "This is the official 2 minute review of the . . . !" :-). I've probably watched every one of them over the years.  They've earned my loyalty--even if I could occasionally save some coins elsewhere. Whatever I end up getting, I know where I'll buy it.

Again, thanks for your replies. Sounds like the V3 is a solid upgrade over the V1 and that the thicker "blast plates" have improved perceived impact severity even over the V2--I know I'd be happy with it----just not sure I might not be potentially even happier with that new guy coming out in a couple of months. Might have to shoot Santa a line, that dude always brings me something that's on my list every year--it's like he can read my mind!  LOL.

Thank you so much for your nice comments. Glad you like the videos. We love doing them and looking out for this professsion.

[MadMax]

On 8/18/2020 at 6:40 PM, Recontra said:

You get hit by an 85 mph pitch on the nipple with my original F3 V-1, and you're possibly in for a fairly serious titty-twisting :-). It'll go away, and no injuries--just doesn't feel good when it happens. You take a 90+ mph shot to my Douglas hard-shell, and you don't feel a thing. 

So, for any of you have tried both the original Force3 V-1 and the V-3 (or who have taken shots with the V-3), whaddya think? Hard to drop $279 if it's not going to be meaningfully better than the V-1 chest protector.

The differences between such CPs such as the Douglas and Force3 models is evidence of different classes of CP, borne from different methodologies.

Wilson, Douglas, and Schutt are the remaining producers of CPs that were borne of the football shoulder-pad origin. Other producers were Riddell and All-American, forced "out" when Wilson filed their patent (on the velcro anchor straps) and the following C&D Letter (order). Douglas skirted this by not having similar anchor straps, instead using velcro faceting to adhere the plates to the foam vest (and so did Schutt, after leaving the market for awhile). Both Douglas and Wilson's methods focus around an open-cell foam vest creating stand-off volume between the wearer and a carapace of hard plastic plates. The advantage to the plates is in distributing the energy of an impact horizontally and allowing a greater volume of open cell foam to be engaged.

What Douglas' CP excels at is density. Because it is still wholly manufactured here in the USA, in limited batch runs (read: non-retail), the plates can afford to be denser. Most are pre-formed and pre-curved, because they won't be mashed into a crate, loaded into a container for transoceanic shipment. With denser plastic plates, the open-cell foam can be (slightly) thinner. Could it be better? Absolutely! Top of the list would be to abandon the sofa-cushion upholstery foam, and source and use modern, advanced laminate foams. Instead of nylon, use technical meshes and fabrics for breathability. Douglas (and Wilson) uses nylon for cheapness and ruggedness – do you think high school football players really notice the difference between nylon and technical fabric?

Schutt has, of course, addressed this and not only transferred their attention to much more advanced foams (3DO is/was the trademarked name of TPU-EVA foam that is now in the XV-HDX), but also carried the highly-valued ventilation (a whole bunch of holes!) from their industry-leading shoulder pads into their CPs... plural.

By contrast, All-Star (on a large scale) and +POS (on a small scale) pursued much more baseball-specific designs. +POS gets a bit kooky, a bit "mad scientist" in their approach, but there is a method to their madness. Instead of adapting parts and manufacturing process of shoulder pads to suit, they're both developing CPs from scratch, from a baseball-umpire specific origin. Now, they still follow somewhat conventional methodology, with an external hard-plastic carapace backed by a foam vest. To their credit, the foam vest is comprised of modern laminate foams, divided into strategic sections, and encased in technical, wicking fabrics.

That leaves Force3, which if we really look back at history, is approaching a CP more from the standpoint of Carlucci than Douglas or Wilson. Cece Carlucci's CPs were known for being made as one-offs or in small batches (maybe 2-6 at a time), with a hodgepodge of plates and foam encased in leather or vinyl skins. One has to understand, the gear available at the time was either a catcher's "washboard" CP (which wouldn't have hard plastic in it, obviously) or an external, arm-held CP (the raft or balloon). Mr Carlucci would have a very detailed, specific set of measurement parameters one would supply to him, and he would hand-make and hand-assemble a CP expressly to those dimensions and purposes. It would conform to your shape like a glove; legend has it that if your dimensions would "change" (got slimmer, fatter, taller, or wider), he would alter your CP to suit, free of charge. So, without the latitude to make bespoke, custom-to-suit CPs like Cece Carlucci, Force3 introduced a CP that would fit and behave in much the same way. 

Kevlar, as a synthetic aramid fiber, has qualities that are highly desirable for protective clothing and gear. It has five times the tensile strength of steel, ounce for ounce. It is also highly heat-resistant, and as such, won't deform or creep when warm, nor when loaded with the heat generated from an impact. So, it is more than capable of absorbing and dissipating that all-too-critical energy that a speeding baseball carries. So if we're dealing with just raw physics and numbers, Kevlar significantly reduces and dissipates the G-force load in all directions of its weave, regardless of what shape it takes, and prevents penetration (failure) of its weave. The problem with baseball, though, is we're not exactly concerned about a bullet penetrating us, but a 5 oz. baseball, traveling at 100mph, delivering its mass load upon us. The first UnEqual CP, the V1, created that conforming shape we desire, but did not have adequate plastic plates to provide structure to the Kevlar. A lot of people, unfairly, viewed the CP as a "softie", primarily because it is encased in a neoprene skin. This neoprene serves two purposes: 1) it keeps UV from permeating to the Kevlar, wherein the Kevlar would decay, 2) it reduces the bruising, cutting, or tearing that often occurs when a shirt is smashed between an oncoming leather baseball and a hard plastic plate.

The UnEqual CP is not a softie. It's a hybrid. The V2 addressed this, and infused much more robust plates into the CP, worthy of being nicknamed "blast plates". The neck opening, once rather restrictive and ill-planned, was restructured. And, importantly, during this time a new Flex-style harness was developed that dramatically improved the conforming fit of the CP. This harness would be included by default on the V3, which also received even more robust blast plates. The V3 has reached an apex; I think, the only two routes of improvement one can do with it is to reshape the ailettes so they have more coverage at the clavicles, and perhaps perforate the blast plates – like swiss cheese – to decrease weight and promote ventilation. It is, though, a very good unit.

A few users out there – such as @tpatience – have seized upon the properties of what the UnEqual represents and have augmented it (improved it, if you will) by combining a V1 vest with the carapace of a Wilson Gold or similarly sized CP. It's a true kitbasher's approach, akin to taking a sports car engine and putting it into a dune-buggy chassis, and turning it into some paramilitary assault vehicle. Not elegant looking, and likely overkill, but tremendously effective.

[Thunderheads]

On 8/29/2020 at 3:56 PM, MadMax said:

A few users out there – such as @tpatience – have seized upon the properties of what the UnEqual represents and have augmented it (improved it, if you will) by combining a V1 vest with the carapace of a Wilson Gold or similarly sized CP. It's a true kitbasher's approach, akin to taking a sports car engine and putting it into a dune-buggy chassis, and turning it into some paramilitary assault vehicle. Not elegant looking, and likely overkill, but tremendously effective.

..... I DID NOT know that!  Hmmmmm ............  @tpatience .... can you drop a photo?

[wolfe_man]

1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

..... I DID NOT know that!  Hmmmmm ............  @tpatience .... can you drop a photo?

This has been around a while now.  I think Ray started it or was the first guy I knew of that did it.

Here's a still from a video on @Razzer's Facebook page, UmpLife.   He uses an Unequal/F3 V1 CP with Gold chest plate and Schutt shoulder guards.  

 

 

[Thunderheads]

3 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

This has been around a while now.  I think Ray started it or was the first guy I knew of that did it.

 

I want to say I saw a pic of Ray's on Facebook, but .... it's a little fuzzy