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HokieUmp

Game 4, NLDS

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I'm a Nats fan, so I'm not gonna try and be unbiased.  But I gotta ask - did they blow it with that Trea Turner hit, here in the 6th inning?

I know I'm an amateur-level umpire, and will work no fields as nice as those, so I don't know their groundrules.  But when I run my plate meetings, part of it goes something like:  "if a ball gets stuck somewhere like the fence, have 'em put their hands up, and we'll go look.  Otherwise, if they reach to play it, it's all they can get."

So Bellinger reaches and THEN puts his hands up, after he realizes there's a negative chance of getting Turner at three.

I'm guessing "it's different in The Show," but does anyone have a cite or other information on that?  (Looking at you, @Senor Azul!!)

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I did not see the play so I do not know what happened. I checked the ESPN play-by-play and it says that Turner led off the bottom of the sixth inning with a ground rule double on a 2-0 count (Turner hit a ground rule double to deep center). Then I found an online account of the game at MSN Sports written by Larry Brown—

“Turner led off the bottom of the sixth with a shot to center against Ross Stripling that was misplayed by Cody Bellinger. Bellinger’s misplay allowed the ball to roll past him to the wall in center field, giving Turner a triple.

“After grabbing the ball from under the wall, Bellinger threw it into the infield and then put his hands up to signify the ball went in an unplayable area. The umps reviewed the play and determined Turner had to return to second due to the ground rules.

“The ball going under the wall did not negatively impact Bellinger’s ability to field it and throw it in, so he and the Dodgers were lucky the rule bailed them out.”

Then I checked the ground rules for Nationals Park both at mlb.com and one other site. Neither of the two local ground rules listed applies to the situation at hand.

Finally, I checked the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.20, p. 47) about lodged balls [rule 5.06(b)(4)(F)]:

A lodged ball is defined as a ball located on the playing field, that abruptly stops and does not fall or roll immediately after becoming wedged in a wall, fence, scoreboard, shrubbery, vines or equipment other than a fielder’s glove. Likewise, a ball that goes behind a field tarp or wall padding without leaving the playing field should also be considered to be lodged and the appropriate base award shall apply.

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Don't see anything in the Nationals Park or general ground rules on this.  The closest is that:

A ball lodging behind or under canvas on field tarpaulin is out of play.

similarly:

A batted or thrown ball lodging in the rotating signage behind home plate or along the first base or third base stands is out of play.

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9 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

The ball going under the wall

That's the key here. If the ball went under the wall (completely that is - not just a part of it), whether or not it's reachable, is 2 bases.

On our fields (read: no replay), you can't see that from the infield. If the fielder grabs it, throws it in, then puts his hands up, I'm assuming it wasn't under the fence and we're playing on. With replay, you can tell if the ball became lodged or not a lot easier and then make the appropriate award. Because of replay in MLB, the players can almost do the opposite to what is taught at the lower levels - grab and then raise your hands.

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11 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

I'm a Nats fan, so I'm not gonna try and be unbiased.  But I gotta ask - did they blow it with that Trea Turner hit, here in the 6th inning?

I know I'm an amateur-level umpire, and will work no fields as nice as those, so I don't know their groundrules.  But when I run my plate meetings, part of it goes something like:  "if a ball gets stuck somewhere like the fence, have 'em put their hands up, and we'll go look.  Otherwise, if they reach to play it, it's all they can get."

So Bellinger reaches and THEN puts his hands up, after he realizes there's a negative chance of getting Turner at three.

I'm guessing "it's different in The Show," but does anyone have a cite or other information on that?  (Looking at you, @Senor Azul!!)

The "hands up" means two things: 1) I (the fielder) didn't push the ball under the fence and 2) Hey Mr. Umpire -- come out and look at the ball to verify it's under the fence.

IF (and it's a big if with one umpire, a fence that doesn't go all the way to the ground, and grass along the fence line that hasn't been trimmed in two weeks) the umpire can tell that the ball was already under the fence, then it doesn't matter that the fielder grabbed it -- and that's akin to the play in the game.

At our level it's as if the ball scooted toward the line marking the dugout and just after it passes the line, F2 reaches and grabs the ball.  We are killing that (assuming we move enough to see it); we're not keeping it live because F2 reached for it.

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Wow, had to be a ground rule discussed pre-game, if it wasn't specifically published already as others have stated. It got under, but barely, and at speed looked like nothing I would have even thought of stopping play for and returning the BR to second. From the CF's quick reaction to put his hands up after retrieving it, it had to have been discussed pre-game with both teams and umpires.

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With 6 umpires, you'd think at least one, if not both of the guys in the OF would have gone out on this ball and been able to make a ruling right away on a lodged ball situation.  

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19 minutes ago, humanbackstop19 said:

With 6 umpires, you'd think at least one, if not both of the guys in the OF would have gone out on this ball and been able to make a ruling right away on a lodged ball situation.  

That's U2's ball all the way and you see him hustling out as the ball's in flight. But he's still 250 feet or so away.

42 minutes ago, BobUmp said:

Wow, had to be a ground rule discussed pre-game, if it wasn't specifically published already as others have stated.

A lodged ball under a fence isn't something that's pre-gamed for a ground rule. It's in the rule book: 5.05(a)(7).

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10 minutes ago, yawetag said:

That's U2's ball all the way and you see him hustling out as the ball's in flight. But he's still 250 feet or so away.

A lodged ball under a fence isn't something that's pre-gamed for a ground rule. It's in the rule book: 5.05(a)(7).

Not sure what pro mechanics are, but CCA also adds in 6-man section:

B. When U2 goes out, the line umpire on the side
the ball is hit also drifts to the outfield in that direction.

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The ball lodged.   It impacted play because it didn't rebound back toward the fielder. 

If the ball stuck in some chain link it's lodged - even if the fielder could pull it out.

Lodged id lodged

Why is anyone arguing?

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3 hours ago, yawetag said:

That's U2's ball all the way and you see him hustling out as the ball's in flight. But he's still 250 feet or so away.

A lodged ball under a fence isn't something that's pre-gamed for a ground rule. It's in the rule book: 5.05(a)(7).

Just read the rule.

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On 10/8/2019 at 12:38 PM, Rich Ives said:

The ball lodged.   It impacted play because it didn't rebound back toward the fielder. 

If the ball stuck in some chain link it's lodged - even if the fielder could pull it out.

Lodged id lodged

Why is anyone arguing?

Is that a serious statement - that this is arguing?   Do you not go to the rest of the Internet?

Even as a biased fan, I was legitimately unsure of why this played out the way it did, based on my (admittedly FAR lower-level) experience.  It was discussed, and answered.  I'd still handle it differently in my games, and that's okay.

Maybe my REAL question should have been:  in a sport that has comically large amounts of money to spend, why on Earth would that situation exist?  Where, especially in a place built for that specific sport only, there would be a gap left for a common element of that game to be stuck?

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Mr. HokieUmp,I am not an engineer but I am pretty sure it is not a design flaw. In fact, it is designed expressly for a good reason—surface drainage. Outfield warning tracks are sloped about 1 percent toward the fence to accommodate this surface drainage. Here’s an excerpt from an article written by Tom Burns of the Texas Rangers about drainage of a baseball field—

There are two common options for outfield drainage. The first continues the principle above, with an equal and consistent degree of slope extending outward in all directions to the warning track. The second option calls for a crown in center field, with the slope extending from the crown outward to the warning track. This option drains the outfield as two halves. Field design and construction also must provide a method of removing the water accumulated at the perimeter of the field through surface drainage. This usually is handled through a channel drain at the edge of the field that connects to a central outside drain line that leads to a catch basin or sewer system. (emphasis added)

https://premierturf.com/diamond-drainage/

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I agree with Sr. Azul's comment -- and I would also add "maintenance" to the list -- you need space to get a rake, etc,. under the fence.

 

The issues could be designed around (e.g., some sort of perforated fencing extending below the padding to allow drainage, but not a ball) but it's not (or hasn't been) worth the cost for the few times it happens.

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12 hours ago, HokieUmp said:

Is that a serious statement - that this is arguing?   Do you not go to the rest of the Internet?

Even as a biased fan, I was legitimately unsure of why this played out the way it did, based on my (admittedly FAR lower-level) experience.  It was discussed, and answered.  I'd still handle it differently in my games, and that's okay.

Maybe my REAL question should have been:  in a sport that has comically large amounts of money to spend, why on Earth would that situation exist?  Where, especially in a place built for that specific sport only, there would be a gap left for a common element of that game to be stuck?

Lodged is lodged.  I saw it in real time and knew it was.   Anyone wondering why it should be called that is arguing the point.  :)

 

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On 10/7/2019 at 7:10 PM, HokieUmp said:

I'm a Nats fan, so I'm not gonna try and be unbiased.  But I gotta ask - did they blow it with that Trea Turner hit, here in the 6th inning?

I know I'm an amateur-level umpire, and will work no fields as nice as those, so I don't know their groundrules.  But when I run my plate meetings, part of it goes something like:  "if a ball gets stuck somewhere like the fence, have 'em put their hands up, and we'll go look.  Otherwise, if they reach to play it, it's all they can get."

So Bellinger reaches and THEN puts his hands up, after he realizes there's a negative chance of getting Turner at three.

I'm guessing "it's different in The Show," but does anyone have a cite or other information on that?  (Looking at you, @Senor Azul!!)

The last thing you want to do is put your hands up and do nothing, only to have the umpire come out say "play on - it isn't lodged" - as happened to Yasel Puig a few years back.

You also need to remember they have replay at their disposal - and this went to replay, where it was confirmed as lodged and the runner sent back.

If this had happened ten years ago, Turner would have remained at third base as no umpire determined the ball was lodged in real time.

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