Force out at First

[Guest mrmet6141]

Batter hits a ground ball to first baseman.  First baseman back hands ball and dives for base for force out.  First baseman has ball in glove hand but tags base with bare hand to beat runner touching first.  Is it a out or runner is safe? 

[Lou B]

First, it's not a force out at first base. Force outs are made by runners "forced" to advance due to the actions of the batter.

Second, if the first baseman has the ball firmly in his glove he can touch first base with any part of his body. No difference tagging the base with his foot or hand or any other part of the body.

In the case you described the batter/runner is out.

[noumpere]

Note that "tagging the base" and "tagging a runner" have different requirements.

[Senor Azul]

Each of the rule sets has a section where the basic terms of the game are defined. The college rule (in its 2019 rule 2-78) actually uses the words touching a base with any part of the body when defining the term tag. The following text is from the 2019 pro rules—

2019 Official Baseball Rules (from the appendix Definitions of Terms)

A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball (not including hanging laces alone), while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove…

High school rules might be more precise in its definition (2018 rule 2-24) because it differentiates the types of outs into force-outs, tag outs and throw outs. Here’s how they define the terms force out and throw out (note that high school doesn’t mind referring to the play in your scenario as a force)—

ART. 1 . . . A force-out is a putout during which a runner who is being forced to advance is tagged out, or is put out by a fielder who holds the ball while touching the base toward which the forced runner is advancing (9-1-1 for special case.)

ART. 5 . . . A throw out is a putout caused by a throw to first base to retire a batter-runner, or to any other base to which a runner is forced or is required to retouch.

[Tborze]

^ Seems they refer to it as a throw out, not a force out!?

[beerguy55]

On 9/14/2019 at 12:09 PM, Guest mrmet6141 said:

Batter hits a ground ball to first baseman.  First baseman back hands ball and dives for base for force out.  First baseman has ball in glove hand but tags base with bare hand to beat runner touching first.  Is it a out or runner is safe? 

With the ball in the glove the fielder may tag the BASE with literally any part of his body - foot, bare hand, glove hand, ass, face, tongue...even the bill of his cap if the cap is worn properly.

The fielder must tag the RUNNER with the glove or hand that holds the ball, or may tag the runner with the ball itself if firmly held in the hand.

[spark2212]

On 9/23/2019 at 1:36 PM, beerguy55 said:

With the ball in the glove the fielder may tag the BASE with literally any part of his body - foot, bare hand, glove hand, ass, face, tongue...even the bill of his cap if the cap is worn properly.

The fielder must tag the RUNNER with the glove or hand that holds the ball, or may tag the runner with the ball itself if firmly held in the hand.

Related question: if the ball goes down F3’s shirt and gets stuck there, does he have secure possession of the ball?

[Mister B]

Note: reaching for the base with a bare hand is a bad idea. Spikes plus hand is not a good combination. 

If the batted ball gets trapped in F3's shirt, umpire should call time and place the runners appropriately. So no, F3 doesn't have possession. 

[spark2212]

41 minutes ago, Mister B said:

Note: reaching for the base with a bare hand is a bad idea. Spikes plus hand is not a good combination. 

If the batted ball gets trapped in F3's shirt, umpire should call time and place the runners appropriately. So no, F3 doesn't have possession. 

Is there a way for him to gain possession without digging the ball out of his shirt? What if he presses down on the ball (through the shirt) with his hand?

 

Edit: I should specify, I’m referring to a thrown ball that goes down his shirt.

[beerguy55]

26 minutes ago, spark2212 said:

Related question: if the ball goes down F3’s shirt and gets stuck there, does he have secure possession of the ball?

no

[Jimurray]

Of interest, in one of the last two 2019 WS games (4 and 5), memory escapes me, F3 made a great stop on a hard hit grounder and had to scramble to 1B to beat the runner. He got up with the ball in his throwing hand and in his dive to touch 1B with his glove he actually put the ball back in the glove. A good instinct for a fielder when trying to tag a runner but unnecessary in that case.  

[Mister B]

10 hours ago, spark2212 said:

Is there a way for him to gain possession without digging the ball out of his shirt? What if he presses down on the ball (through the shirt) with his hand?

 

Edit: I should specify, I’m referring to a thrown ball that goes down his shirt.

Once the ball is dead, he can't do anything. So no. Thrown or batted, it doesn't matter. Bases awarded might change, but that's it. 

[yawetag]

8 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Of interest, in one of the last two 2019 WS games (4 and 5), memory escapes me, F3 made a great stop on a hard hit grounder and had to scramble to 1B to beat the runner. He got up with the ball in his throwing hand and in his dive to touch 1B with his glove he actually put the ball back in the glove. A good instinct for a fielder when trying to tag a runner but unnecessary in that case.  

Could also be he's learned that "ball in the hand in the glove" leads to fewer dropped balls than "ball in the hand."

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, yawetag said:

Could also be he's learned that "ball in the hand in the glove" leads to fewer dropped balls than "ball in the hand."

Actually he removed the hand from the glove after he put the ball in. I thought maybe he did it for better reach but the angle was conducive for either arm.