"Pushing" a runner off a base

[RBIbaseball]

Not sure if there is one, but I don't think I need a rule to know you cannot just blatantly push a runner off a base to try to get a tag out, but I had a situation that I thought was more of a "that's good baseball" play.

Where do you draw the line on this?

For example, I had a play where a runner came in hard to 3B standing up and beat the ball/tag by about 2 sec. His momentum took his body past 3B. I'll try to help you envision... as he tried to maintain contact with the base, all his weight was on his front foot. He was taking tiny little stutter steps with his front foot as he was stretching his back leg (foot/toe) with all his might, maintaining contact with the base by dragging the toe of his shoe along the base inch by inch as he tried to fully stop. He had about 3 stutters (and subsequent "inch toe drags") when the 3B has caught the ball and applied the tag. He did a swipe tag and after making contact continued to hold it as the player continued to stutter. After about 3 more stutters, the player's foot came off the base and I punched him out.

I caught a lot of SH*# of course from the offensive coach as he tried to argue that his kid was forced off the base, but I told him something along the lines of "he just tagged him coach, his momentum took him off the base, he just tagged him, he's playing baseball".

 

To be clear on what my judgement was on the play:

1) I do believe the runner would have 100% maintained contact with the base if a tag was never applied.

2) If F5 did not continue to press/hold the tag on the player, the swipe in itself may have been enough for him to lose contact (point being a stiff breeze would have taken him off the base).

3) The tag that was applied was very "fair". Standard tag. Realistically a little extra pressure I'm sure was put on the leg, but like I said... I felt like it was a good baseball play vs. bush league tactic.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 459—Runner—No Body Control on Base, pp. 303-304):

NCAA Official Interpretation: Paronto:  “A legal tag that is forcefully applied to a runner can result in an out. When a runner is going into a base without body control and a forceful tag knocks him from the base, he is out.”

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  A forceful tag should not be grounds for protecting a runner from being tagged while off his base. (2013 WRIM, p. 144)

“A forceful tag is not, in itself, a knock or push by a fielder.” (2013 WRIM, p. 144, Fn 330)

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  If a runner is knocked or pushed off a base by a fielder and would not have lost contact on his own momentum, the umpire following conclusion of play will call time and award the runner the base he had already reached safely.

Case Play:  R1, 1 out, 3-2 count. The batter singles to right. R1 attempts to go to third. As he slides headfirst over the top of the bag, he is able to hold the bag with the toes of his left foot. The third baseman applies a hard tag on R1’s foot, knocking it off the bag. Ruling:  At all levels, R1 is out. (2013 WRIM)

Also, you can find the following in the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.14, p. 45):

If in the judgment of an umpire, a runner is pushed or forced off a base by a fielder, intentionally or unintentionally, at which the runner would have otherwise been called safe, the umpire has the authority and discretion under the circumstances to return the runner to the base he was forced off following the conclusion of the play.

And here’s an old thread with video of the Kent Hrbek/Ron Gant play from the 1991 World Series—

 

 

[noumpere]

I think you have the right general logic here, but I can't immediately find support for it (or against it) -- if it's a "normal tag" the runner is out; if the runner is "pushed off" the base the runner is safe.  Heck, it might even be OBS, but I wouldn't go there.

[maven]

Wendelstedt has an interp on this, and you have the right idea (and the correct call for your play). If a runner is off balance such that the ordinary force of a tag separates him from the base, then the out stands. If a fielder pushes a runner who otherwise would have been safely on base, the umpire will protect the runner back to the base.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, maven said:

Wendelstedt has an interp on this, and you have the right idea (and the correct call for your play). If a runner is off balance such that the ordinary force of a tag separates him from the base, then the out stands. If a fielder pushes a runner who otherwise would have been safely on base, the umpire will protect the runner back to the base.

Unless it's Hrbek and Gant.  Then a push is allowed. 

[beerguy55]

I BELIEVE this would also apply to a "normal" "standard" swipe tag that just knocks the runner's hand/foot off the base, even if momentum isn't a factor (ie. head first slide, runner's hand is on base and slide has ended, swipe tag to wrist knocks hand off base).   It would come down to judging intent...was the fielder just trying to apply a tag or was he trying to knock the runner off the base.

[maven]

1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

Unless it's Hrbek and Gant.  Then a push is allowed. 

Wow you're old.

[Rich Ives]

18 minutes ago, maven said:

Wow you're old.

Yep.  3/4 century.

[Guest Ted H.]

My question would be, what if the fielder clearly and intentionally pushes the runner off the bag. How is this not obstruction. MLB rule states in all obstructions, the runner is given the base he would have secured if the obstruction had not occurred. Further, he must be given at least one base. Therefore, if he is obstructed at first, he must be awarded second.

[MadMax]

20 hours ago, Guest Ted H. said:

How is this not obstruction?

Because it’s not, by definition, Obstruction. Does the fielder have the ball? Yes... then what he did is untoward and unsporting, and in violation of the spirit of the game, but it is not Obstruction, and therefore does not carry the “must be awarded (an additional base)” directive.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 458, p. 303): 

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  If a runner is knocked or pushed off base by a fielder and would not have lost contact on his own momentum, the umpire following conclusion of play will call time and award the runner the base he had already reached safely.

FED:  No provision. Treat as in OBR.

NCAA:  No provision. Treat as in OBR.

[beerguy55]

18 hours ago, Guest Ted H. said:

My question would be, what if the fielder clearly and intentionally pushes the runner off the bag. How is this not obstruction. MLB rule states in all obstructions, the runner is given the base he would have secured if the obstruction had not occurred. Further, he must be given at least one base. Therefore, if he is obstructed at first, he must be awarded second.

Yeah, maybe the rule should be changed, because in its current state there is no risk and all reward for the fielder.

But think the other direction - what if it truly was unintentional?

There are three choices here:

1. Give the runner the base - regardless of intent

2. Give the runner the next base - regardless of intent

3. Make the umpire determine the fielder's intent and determine which base the runner gets.

I think #3 plain sucks...and I think #2 is a lot worse than #1.

[MadMax]

8 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

There are three choices here:

Nope, there is only 1 choice, the 4th option... the one the Manual alludes to:

• Call “Time”, and Place/Award the Runner upon the bag he was already Safely at. If egregious in nature, Warn & Eject if warranted.

Keep in mind, this doesn’t happen in MLB because in MLB, you pull this stunt, you’re getting a pitch in the ribs next time you’re up. Amateur baseball cannot suffer this “sorting out” retaliation, so it is likely best to Warn & Eject if necessary.

[Biscuit]

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Yeah, maybe the rule should be changed, because in its current state there is no risk and all reward for the fielder.

But think the other direction - what if it truly was unintentional?

There are three choices here:

1. Give the runner the base - regardless of intent

2. Give the runner the next base - regardless of intent

3. Make the umpire determine the fielder's intent and determine which base the runner gets.

I think #3 plain sucks...and I think #2 is a lot worse than #1.

There's no risk... If the umpires are unwilling to handle their crap. If it's clearly intentional, as madmax said, warn or eject. That'll put an end to it real quick (either because they'll realize they were being stupid and stop after a warning, or they won't have the opportunity because they've been tossed)

[maven]

9 hours ago, MadMax said:

Amateur baseball cannot suffer this “sorting out” retaliation, so it is likely best to Warn & Eject if necessary.

This statement is true as far as it goes. But my bar for "if necessary" is extremely high: we'd be talking about a very hot game between 2 teams that hate each other, and they give me no choice but to get involved in this action.

In most cases, a simple return of the runner to base and a joking "nice try" to the fielder are sufficient (when making this ruling, I will sometimes add the informal sweeping arms/off the base signal and verbalize "he pushed him off!") If the runner seems pissed, I might further tell him to cool it, and give the fielder a KTSO.

You might regard these as informal warnings, which they are. A Warn & Eject sequence will be written down and communicated to the coach. Note that per FED 3-3-1 PENALTY, a written warning entails restriction to the dugout, so we'd need a sub to replace the offending fielder. (OBR-based codes do not as such have a restriction provision.)