What constitutes an appeal?

[RBIbaseball]

LL majors game. 3 umps.

R2, 1 out. Pop fly to 3rd base. Coach was mistakenly yelling "2 outs run run", so R2 goes and reaches 3B just as F5 catches the ball. Everyone in the stands is yelling tag the runner (clearly he did not tag up). F5 tags the runner while he is standing on 3B, but the other base ump on that side makes no call. F5 lets go of the tag a little confused, and then R2 sprints back toward 2B. They throw him out cleanly before he reaches 2B.

Even though the coaches got their out, they came to argue the call saying he should have been out of 3B. 

1) What constitutes an appeal? The player/coach announcing it? In this case, the coach was yelling to "tag the runner he didn't tag up" toward his team (as well as about 20 fans). Does the coach or player have to clearly state to an umpire it's an appeal? Does the player have to understand he is appealing?

I explained to them that simply tagging the runner standing on the base does not get an out, but if they clearly state they are appealing the tag at second then it would have. But not sure if that's right.

[stkjock]

An obvious attempt to tag the runner should be sufficient, why else would the defense tag this runner

 

The appeal must be explicit. A defensive player with the ball must then either tag the player whose action is being appealed, or touch the base at which the appealable action took place, and then must indicate to the umpire either verbally or with an unmistakable action the intention to appeal. "An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire.

[agdz59]

1 minute ago, stkjock said:

An obvious attempt to tag the runner should be sufficient, why else would the defense tag this runner

But the LL 7.01 says "The runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when the runner touches it before being retired. The runner is then entitled to it until retired or forced to vacate it for another runner..."  So the OP was correct to tell the coach the tag at third did not get an out.

Since time had not been called, the appeal can happen directly as was done.  There is no need to announce an appeal unless there is more than one possible appeal to make and the defense needs to say which runner is being appealed with the touch of the base.  That wasn't the case here - there was only one possible runner being appealed at 2nd.   

[RBIbaseball]

@stkjockThanks for the explanation. That's what I was looking for, although I don't see anything that detailed in the LL rulebook. Only "An APPEAL is the act of a fielder in claiming a violation of the rules by the offensive team." LL kids constantly tag each other even when the ball is 5 sec late on a steal for example, so not sure if intent should be assumed. 

Even so, according to your excerpt,  it says "and then must indicate to the umpire... unmistakable action" ... this 100% never happened.

F5 held the tag for about a second, coaches/fans yelling , let go in confusion and basically was looking at his coaches like he had no idea why he was tagging the kid.

 

Edit: Found "An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in hand, would not constitute an appeal. The ball must be live to make an appeal."

 

[RBIbaseball]

@agdz59

I was fairly certain that the runner is not out while standing on 3B, as he had the right to advance whether he left early or not, and that he could only be called out for leaving early on appeal.

Everyone in the ball park knew he left early because he was on the next base when it was caught, but I didn't think that was relevant. If he would had only left 1 sec early, I can't just assume the defense is tagging him on an appeal. It could had just been another case of a 10 year old tagging just for the heck of it (which happens all the time well after the play is over).

[agdz59]

I believe the defense touching 2nd before the runner gets back is "clearly intended as an appeal".  There is no other reason for them to do it other than the appeal.  I wouldn't need to hear anything from the defense before ringing up R2.

[RBIbaseball]

Just now, agdz59 said:

I believe the defense touching 2nd before the runner gets back is "clearly intended as an appeal".  There is no other reason for them to do it other than the appeal.  I wouldn't need to hear anything from the defense before ringing up R2.

Agreed, but in this case that tag happened on 3B. And he tagged him like 1-2 sec after he reached the base, since he caught it a step away from the base.

[agdz59]

Just now, RBIbaseball said:

Agreed, but in this case that tag happened on 3B. And he tagged him like 1-2 sec after he reached the base, since he caught it a step away from the base.

Wait, I thought you said the defense stepped on 2nd after the umpire made no call after the tag?  The no call, IMO, was correct.  You can't tag out a runner who has taken sole possession of a base (two runners on a base - difference story!).  The only way to get the out  - the way I read the LL manual - is via the appeal.

[RBIbaseball]

4 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Wait, I thought you said the defense stepped on 2nd after the umpire made no call after the tag?  The no call, IMO, was correct.  You can't tag out a runner who has taken sole possession of a base (two runners on a base - difference story!).  The only way to get the out  - the way I read the LL manual - is via the appeal.

I didn't clarify, my fault.  They threw him out on a tag a couple steps before 2B. So at that point he's just out while running the bases.

Right, I agree with you on part one, but the whole basis of the question is was the tag while he was standing on 3B "an appeal". The kid had no idea why he was doing it, but the fans and coaches were yelling at him to tag him.

If he didn't get thrown out before 2B, we would have had a handful on our hands with the coaches I think.

[Jimurray]

Just now, agdz59 said:

Wait, I thought you said the defense stepped on 2nd after the umpire made no call after the tag?  The no call, IMO, was correct.  You can't tag out a runner who has taken sole possession of a base (two runners on a base - difference story!).  The only way to get the out  - the way I read the LL manual - is via the appeal.

A runner can be appealed for missing a previous base or leaving early on a fly ball while he is standing on an advanced base. The runner can be tagged while on the base. 

[agdz59]

1 minute ago, Jimurray said:

A runner can be appealed for missing a previous base or leaving early on a fly ball while he is standing on an advanced base. The runner can be tagged while on the base. 

I've been looking for that in the 2019 LL rule book without success.  Do you know where that is covered?

[RBIbaseball]

@Jimurray

Understood. But simply tagging someone is not an appeal in itself is it? I thought it had to be clear the that defensive player understood he was appealing something vs. just tagging someone just to tag him.

[RBIbaseball]

@agdz59

• 7.08 - Any runner is out when -
• (d)failing to retouch the base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before that runner or the base is tagged by a fielder. The runner shall not be called out for failure to retouch the base after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an Appeal Play;

Tagging the runner is a valid way to appeal. To me (d) implies it doesn't matter whether he's on a base or not.

[agdz59]

2 minutes ago, RBIbaseball said:

@Jimurray

Understood. But simply tagging someone is not an appeal in itself is it? I thought it had to be clear the that defensive player understood he was appealing something vs. just tagging someone just to tag him.

Now i get what you are saying and I agree with you.  In fact, I didn't see the tag at third as an appeal at all.

[RBIbaseball]

23 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Now i get what you are saying and I agree with you.  In fact, I didn't see the tag at third as an appeal at all.

Which goes back to the beginning... The coaches and fans that were yelling at the kid clearly knew they were tagging him for leaving 2B early, but the kid didn't seem to have any idea. He just followed directions in the chaos, therefore the base ump on that side didn't consider it an appeal, and I told him that I think he got it right.

Any definition I've heard of for an appeal is that the defensive player has to understand that he is appealing something vs just applying a tag as in a regular out attempt. But maybe at this age you just give it to them either way?

edit: @agdz59 not aruging with you, but it looks like others feel it was a legitimate appeal. I don't know if it's a judgment thing with intent to appeal, or if we were just flat out wrong.

[The Man in Blue]

As always ... the appeal process will vary by rule set.  I know you are talking specific to LL, but just in case somebody reads this and tries to apply it elsewhere ... DON’T. 

 

For what it it is worth, I would not have considered the tag at third base amidst chaos an appeal.  Fans cannot appeal.  Coaches yelling at random is not an appeal.  A clueless kid tagging a runner is not making an appeal.  

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, RBIbaseball said:

edit: @agdz59 not aruging with you, but it looks like others feel it was a legitimate appeal. I don't know if it's a judgment thing with intent to appeal, or if we were just flat out wrong.

Yes, it's a judgment thing--was it an unmistakable act?  And, as described, I would have it as an appeal (and an out) in the OP, as I see the play in my mind's eye.

If the play is changed so the ball is caught a little sooner, and R32 is tagged just after sliding into third, then you might judge the tag to be an attempt to retire an advancing runner, and not an appeal. Or, if the play is changed so F5 "playfully" tags R2 before quickly returning the ball to the pitcher -- you might not have an appeal.  Bur, with the coaches yelling and F5 deliberately tagging the runner clearly standing on the base -- this is an appeal.

[stkjock]

IMHO, the tag of the runner at third is “obvious” particularly in the OP example when half the bench is shouting about it 

@agdz59 yes, on the rule, but he’s retired on appeal and no longer entitled to the base. 

[maven]

As described, I would have this as an appeal 10 times out of 10. Everyone in the ballpark, including R2, knew what was going on. And why else tag a runner standing still on 3B?

Mechanics note: the umpire MUST rule on a tag attempt, however we judge it (appeal, tag of an advancing runner, whatever). Standing there staring at a fielder attempting a play is not an umpiring mechanic. Every play and attempted play requires a ruling (even the obvious ones, whether or not we need to sell it). The umpire's inaction in the OP partly accounts for the clown rodeo that followed.

[maven]

10 hours ago, agdz59 said:

But the LL 7.01 says "The runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when the runner touches it before being retired. The runner is then entitled to it until retired or forced to vacate it for another runner..."  So the OP was correct to tell the coach the tag at third did not get an out.

The concept of "entitlement" to a base concerns which of 2 runners on a single base is out when both are tagged. The one entitled to it is not out.

Entitlement is irrelevant to this play, as it confers no protection from a live-ball appeal. Touching a base provides protection from being tagged off base (obviously), but a live-ball appeal can be executed by tagging either the runner (anywhere on the field) or the base missed/not retouched.

The BU is entitled to his judgment about whether the appeal was "unmistakable," but if that's what he was ruling, IMO his bar is too high.

[stevis]

I too would see this as an unmistakable appeal.  Especially with the younger ages--they're learning, and the coach may be trying to teach them.  (It may be indistinguishable from the jackwagon who just wants the out, but either way, get the out.  They've executed properly, even if they didn't quite know it.)

[RBIbaseball]

3 hours ago, maven said:

As described, I would have this as an appeal 10 times out of 10. Everyone in the ballpark, including R2, knew what was going on. And why else tag a runner standing still on 3B?

Mechanics note: the umpire MUST rule on a tag attempt, however we judge it (appeal, tag of an advancing runner, whatever). Standing there staring at a fielder attempting a play is not an umpiring mechanic. Every play and attempted play requires a ruling (even the obvious ones, whether or not we need to sell it). The umpire's inaction in the OP partly accounts for the clown rodeo that followed.

 

3 hours ago, maven said:

The concept of "entitlement" to a base concerns which of 2 runners on a single base is out when both are tagged. The one entitled to it is not out.

Entitlement is irrelevant to this play, as it confers no protection from a live-ball appeal. Touching a base provides protection from being tagged off base (obviously), but a live-ball appeal can be executed by tagging either the runner (anywhere on the field) or the base missed/not retouched.

The BU is entitled to his judgment about whether the appeal was "unmistakable," but if that's what he was ruling, IMO his bar is too high.

Thanks for the mechanic lesson. Makes sense. He started this summer as well.

It may not have came across clearly in my initial post, but the tag happened within maybe 2 sec of the player reaching the base. If there was no appeal or crowd yelling, I'm 95% sure that F5 would have still attempted to tag the runner standing on the base (he caught it only a step or two from the bag). The kids tend to overrun the base a bit sometimes, and the fielders tend to tag people just for the heck of it so that's why my judgement was no appeal at the time.

That being said. I now better understand what constitutes and appeal, and I take all your guys opinions/experience to heart. I'll most likely be a little more forgiving in the future in a similar situation.

 

[The Man in Blue]

 

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

Bur, with the coaches yelling and F5 deliberately tagging the runner clearly standing on the base -- this is an appeal.

 

4 hours ago, stkjock said:

IMHO, the tag of the runner at third is “obvious” particularly in the OP example when half the bench is shouting about it 

@agdz59 yes, on the rule, but he’s retired on appeal and no longer entitled to the base. 

 

I may take some flak here (or I may get some kudos) but the bolded sections above are exactly why I would NOT consider it an appeal.  Yelling is not an appeal.  I am not going to encourage coaches, players, or fans to scream about a play and then reward them for it.

Now, if the coach is yelling “Touch the base/tag the runner because he left early!” in order to be heard over the commotion, I am OK.  But if the coach is just yelling “He left early!  He left early!” I am going to look for something a little more professional to be considered an appropriate appeal.  Just like a coach coming out to talk to you ... I need something specific and a specific request for action.  Screaming an opinion (even if it is right) doesn’t cut it for me.

 

Ok, roast me.

[Jimurray]

46 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

 

 

I may take some flak here (or I may get some kudos) but the bolded sections above are exactly why I would NOT consider it an appeal.  Yelling is not an appeal.  I am not going to encourage coaches, players, or fans to scream about a play and then reward them for it.

Now, if the coach is yelling “Touch the base/tag the runner because he left early!” in order to be heard over the commotion, I am OK.  But if the coach is just yelling “He left early!  He left early!” I am going to look for something a little more professional to be considered an appropriate appeal.  Just like a coach coming out to talk to you ... I need something specific and a specific request for action.  Screaming an opinion (even if it is right) doesn’t cut it for me.

 

Ok, roast me.

You would agree that a throw to a base where the runner left way early (brainfart or hit and run) or went too far to see if the ball was caught would not require any verbal if that runner was attempting to get back to his base and the throw beat him. You would signal the out without any other indication of appeal? 

[Senor Azul]

2019 Little League Rules Instruction Manual

Rule 7.10(d)

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

EXAMPLE: How to make a proper appeal: To make an appeal, first you (the umpire) must make sure the ball is live. If the ball is live, it does NOT have to go back to the pitcher. The ball may be taken straight to the base missed, or to the runner who missed the base or who left early. The base or the runner can be tagged. The defense then tells the umpire what they are doing. Example: “Mr. Umpire, the runner who was on second left before the catch.” The umpire then declares the runner either safe or out. If the umpire has a dead ball situation, in other words, “time” has been called or the ball has gone into a dead ball area, he/she must first make a live ball situation. In accordance with Rule 5.11. Get a ball to the pitcher, get him/her to toe the pitcher’s plate (stand on it), and you, the umpire, yell “play” or “play ball”. Now the ball is live. Now follow the procedure outlined above for a live ball appeal.

[RBIbaseball]

13 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

2019 Little League Rules Instruction Manual

Rule 7.10(d)

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

EXAMPLE: How to make a proper appeal: To make an appeal, first you (the umpire) must make sure the ball is live. If the ball is live, it does NOT have to go back to the pitcher. The ball may be taken straight to the base missed, or to the runner who missed the base or who left early. The base or the runner can be tagged. The defense then tells the umpire what they are doing. Example: “Mr. Umpire, the runner who was on second left before the catch.” The umpire then declares the runner either safe or out. If the umpire has a dead ball situation, in other words, “time” has been called or the ball has gone into a dead ball area, he/she must first make a live ball situation. In accordance with Rule 5.11. Get a ball to the pitcher, get him/her to toe the pitcher’s plate (stand on it), and you, the umpire, yell “play” or “play ball”. Now the ball is live. Now follow the procedure outlined above for a live ball appeal.

I think this is the point of contention. Would it be fair to say the players (defense) have to show intent/understanding on what they are doing (or at least reciprocate verbally what the coaches are telling them to say/do), or do the coaches yelling (among crowd/bench noise) from the dugout while a kid applies a tag suffice?

Differing opinions on this one, but in the end seems like judgement depending on how the play went down.