Is the runner out?

[SavoyBG]

This happened today in a state tournament softball game in NJ. I'm wondering what the correct ruling is.

Batter hits a HR out of the park with a runner on first, two run HR. Batter-runner trips over first base and falls down, gets up and starts towards second and falls again. The first base coach comes over and helps the girl to her feet. She then finishes rounding the bases. The umpires conferred and counted the run, saying that the coach assisting did not matter because the ball was not live. Is this correct for baseball?

Suppose the runner is called out. If it's the third out and the other runner had not scored yet, would that other runner still be allowed to score on the award?

 

 

 

 

[yawetag]

Fed:

3.2.2 SITUATION A:

B1 hits a home run out of the park and, while rounding third, trips over the base. The third-base coach helps B1 to his feet.

RULING: The ball is dead and, since B1 is awarded four bases for the home run, he is allowed to score with this type of assistance by the third-base coach.

 

Andrew's Rule: Who the F*#K cares? Count the run.

[SavoyBG]

Thanks yaw. I assume it would be the same for softball and they got it right.

[humanbackstop19]

I believe in baseball you may also substitute a pinch runner to complete the 4-base award if the BR cannot complete the trip without penalty.

[Aging_Arbiter]

What about the other team??.............. y'all remember this??

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=injured+softball+player+assistance+from+teammates&&view=detail&mid=4EEB31074B584ECCB3F64EEB31074B584ECCB3F6&&FORM=VRDGAR

 

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

What about the other team??.............. y'all remember this??

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=injured+softball+player+assistance+from+teammates&&view=detail&mid=4EEB31074B584ECCB3F64EEB31074B584ECCB3F6&&FORM=VRDGAR

 

Wasn't necessary. A sub could have completed the run.  That said no one has a rule that say the opposition cannot assist a runner.

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

What about the other team??.............. y'all remember this??

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=injured+softball+player+assistance+from+teammates&&view=detail&mid=4EEB31074B584ECCB3F64EEB31074B584ECCB3F6&&FORM=VRDGAR

 

 

2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Wasn't necessary. A sub could have completed the run.  That said no one has a rule that say the opposition cannot assist a runner.

I remember this as it became a teachable moment for the competitive girls team I was coaching - many of whom were aspiring to be college players. 

If I remember correctly there's a lot going on here - and it's unclear if the umpires were right, at the time, for NCAA softball rules, or if they really kicked it.

Part of the story is this was her last college game, and her first home run, ever, so she wanted to complete it.

The other part of the story was the umpires ruled that she couldn't be assisted by her teammates or coaches (she would be called out) and that if a runner subbed in that runner would have to stay at first, turning her HR into a single.  Again, no idea if they were right or wrong at the time per NCAA rules.  Going by international official rules, they were right about assistance and wrong about the sub.

Sec. 9.THE RUNNER IS OUT

e. When anyone, other than another runner, physically assists him while the ball is in play or when the ball becomes dead after a home run or an award of bases.

Don't know if NCAA follows that to the letter, or have adopted a more forgiving approach.

Here's the International rule about substitution, and I have a hard time believing NCAA would adopt their own in line with what the umps were claiming:

Sec. 8.SUBSTITUTES/ILLEGAL PLAYER

d. If an injury to a batter-runner (or runner) prevents them from proceeding to an awarded base, and the ball is dead, the batter-runner (or runner) may be substituted for. The substitute will be allowed to proceed to any awarded base(s). The substitute must legally touch any awarded or missed base(s) not previously touched.

So, if the girl wanted to complete her own home run, the only solution was to have the other team help.

Anyway, it made a good story, inspired a lot of young female ball players, and won an ESPY.

 

15 hours ago, SavoyBG said:

The umpires conferred and counted the run, saying that the coach assisting did not matter because the ball was not live. Is this correct for baseball?

Suppose the runner is called out. If it's the third out and the other runner had not scored yet, would that other runner still be allowed to score on the award?

I'm not even sure if it's right for softball.  It depends on the rule set.  As shown above, official softball rules it is an out.   I agree under common sense and fair play it shouldn't matter, but the rule here is pretty clear in black and white that they want it to matter, even on a dead ball home run.  Just depends on whether USSSA,  NFHS, LL or whatever organization has modified that.

As to your second question - I think there's been discussion here about whether or not the run counts if on a dead ball home run B/R passes R1 for the third out, before R2 crosses the plate.  ie. do the runners get to complete, and count, their award.  Whatever the end result, I would think this would be the same.   What I do know is on bases loaded two out, if B/R walks, then R2 passes third base and is tagged out before R3 scores, R3's run still counts.

[yawetag]

20 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Sec. 9.THE RUNNER IS OUT

e. When anyone, other than another runner, physically assists him while the ball is in play or when the ball becomes dead after a home run or an award of bases.

I didn't realize NCAA softball referred to the players as "him". Seems like a sport that's predominately played by women at the collegiate level would have "she / her" as the pronouns in the rulebook.

[Biscuit]

5 hours ago, humanbackstop19 said:

I believe in baseball you may also substitute a pinch runner to complete the 4-base award if the BR cannot complete the trip without penalty.

Is this true for all dead ball base awards? What about live ball base awards? Who decides whether the runner can complete the trip?

I ask, because I had a kid get drilled in the neck (pitcher was throwing pretty hard for a 14's game), and go down. He got back up and walked towards the dugout to meet with his coaches, under his own power, but clearly in a lot of pain. They ended up pulling him before he went to first, and the defense appealed. I/my partner was/am not sure of the correct ruling, but my best guess was that it was legal as he was pulled for injury. DHC was a bit of a jerk about it, and was one run away from a spread (which he ended up getting), but didn't press too hard.

[yawetag]

I think all these situations are perfect examples of umpiring with the book, not by the book.

My feeling is that the original rule was written to prevent some asshole from refusing to take a base award and having someone do it for them. Not to stop a hurt player from getting treated or forcing them to work through an injury to touch bases.

Maybe I'm wrong, but calling a kid (or an adult, for that matter) out for walking to the dugout to get medical attention is a gross misapplication of the rules.

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Biscuit, you did good in allowing the substitution—it is legal in all three codes to substitute while the ball is dead.

2018 NFHS rule 3 SECTION 1 SUBSTITUTING

ART. 1 . . . After the lineup cards are official (1-1-2) prior to the game, the player listed as pitcher shall pitch until the first opposing batter has been put out or has advanced to first base. In any other case, a substitute may replace a player of his team when the ball is dead and time has been called. The umpire-in-chief shall record any reported substitutions on the lineup card and then announce immediately any change(s) to the opposing team. Projected substitutions are not allowed. In each of the following situations, the ball is declared live by the umpire-in-chief. Should there be no announcement of substitutions, a substitute has entered the game when the ball is live and:

2019 OBR rule 5.10 Substitutions and Pitching Changes (Including Visits to the Mound)

(a)   A player, or players, may be substituted during a game at any time the ball is dead. A substitute player shall bat in the replaced player’s position in the team’s batting order.

The NCAA rules the same way. See their rule 5-5c.

[Senor Azul]

In 1891, any player on the field could be substituted for at any time during a game. The following text is taken from the book The Official Rules of Baseball Illustrated by David Nemec (p. 38).

“According to baseball legend, the one player who more than any other forced the game’s lawmakers to tighten the 1891 substitution rules was Mike ‘King’ Kelly. There is an often-told tale that one afternoon in the early 1890’s shortly after the rule was liberalized to allow substitutes to enter a game at any time, Kelly, then with the Boston Beaneaters, was on the bench when a pop foul headed his way. Seeing that Charlie Ganzel, the Beaneaters catcher, had no chance to reach it, Kelly sprang to his feet, announced himself in the game for Ganzel, and snared the pop.”

Again, this is just a legend, but thanks, Mr. yawetag, for reminding me of it.

[Aging_Arbiter]

1 hour ago, yawetag said:

I didn't realize NCAA softball referred to the players as "him". Seems like a sport that's predominately played by women at the collegiate level would have "she / her" as the pronouns in the rulebook.

HEY @yawetag !!!   That's profiling!

[Senor Azul]

Mr. yawetag, I don’t think the rules cited by Mr. beerguy55 were from the NCAA Softball rule book. In fact, he said otherwise just before the citations, “Going by international official rules, they were right about assistance and wrong about the sub.” And just to reassure you, I checked the 2019 NCAA softball rule book and I can confirm that they do indeed use feminine pronouns throughout their book. The following rules are from that 2019 NCAA Softball rule book (the relevant rules for the play in the video). Please note the use of the pronoun her in rule 8.5.3.2 and the different numbering format used from what was posted earlier.

8.5.1.1 Any player may be substituted for at any time when the ball is dead.

8.5.3.2 If an injury to a runner prevents her from proceeding to an awarded base, the ball is dead and substitution may be made. The substitute must legally touch all awarded or missed bases not previously touched.

[yawetag]

2 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. yawetag, I don’t think the rules cited by Mr. beerguy55 were from the NCAA Softball rule book. In fact, he said otherwise just before the citations, “Going by international official rules, they were right about assistance and wrong about the sub.”

Ah. I misread the sentence you quoted. You're right.

[beerguy55]

On 5/30/2019 at 12:10 PM, yawetag said:

I didn't realize NCAA softball referred to the players as "him". Seems like a sport that's predominately played by women at the collegiate level would have "she / her" as the pronouns in the rulebook.

This is from the Official Rules of Softball rule book.   This is the rule set they play under in the Olympics.  The rule set was derived from OBR about 50 years ago, and looks to have a lot of "cut and paste".  Also keep in mind this covers fast pitch and slow pitch.   The majority of slow pitch players are male.  The majority of fast pitch players are female (though men's fast pitch is quite popular in Canada - I'd speculate more men's fast pitch teams than men's baseball teams).  I've played both, and I'll tell you I've had much more success facing 90 mph at 60 feet than 80 mph at 48 feet. 

 

On 5/30/2019 at 1:50 PM, Senor Azul said:

In 1891, any player on the field could be substituted for at any time during a game. The following text is taken from the book The Official Rules of Baseball Illustrated by David Nemec (p. 38).

“According to baseball legend, the one player who more than any other forced the game’s lawmakers to tighten the 1891 substitution rules was Mike ‘King’ Kelly. There is an often-told tale that one afternoon in the early 1890’s shortly after the rule was liberalized to allow substitutes to enter a game at any time, Kelly, then with the Boston Beaneaters, was on the bench when a pop foul headed his way. Seeing that Charlie Ganzel, the Beaneaters catcher, had no chance to reach it, Kelly sprang to his feet, announced himself in the game for Ganzel, and snared the pop.”

Again, this is just a legend, but thanks, Mr. yawetag, for reminding me of it.

Right out of Ken Burns' Baseball doc.  As is my signature.

I find it interesting that the opening statement of the documentary - basically 30 seconds into a 20 hour essay - states that the tolerance of cheating is as integral to the game and its history as anything else you might expect.   That mindset is where legends like the one you cite are born.

Basically - what can you get away with in plain sight of the four well-dressed gentlemen on the field.

[HokieUmp]

Quote

The majority of slow pitch players are male . drinking and/or drunk.

FTFY.

Source:  me.