Fair ball goes out of play

[Guest Nor-Cal Hooks]

We play according to the MLB Rulebook with 2 umpires... Bases loaded (R1 = runner at first, etc.) 2 outs. Batter (B1) hits a high fly ball in fair territory to left field (LF) and runners take off on contact. LF dives for ball and the ball hits off his head and shoots out of play into spectators area. Before ball touched LF, R3 Scored, R2 was rounding 3rd, R1 was mid-way to 3rd, and B1 was mid-way to 2nd. As the ball was rolling away from LF, runners advanced and R2 scored, R1 rounded 3rd and B1 arrived at 2nd. The ball went out of play, was called dead by the field umpire, and he returned R1 to 3rd and kept B1 at 2nd. The field umpire said that it is ruled a ground rule double and each runner was granted 2 bases. I argued that since it was in play and runners advanced a base prior to the ball being touched by LF, R1 should be awarded 2 bases from 2nd and B1 2 bases from 1st since they were there when the ball was touched by LF and subsequently redirected out of play after. The umpires gathered, discussed, and upheld their decision of a ground rule double  because the ball was not deliberately booted out of play and each runner was granted 2 bases from their original starting position. 

Was this the correct decision? I argued that if it is correct, then we can just kick the ball out of play whenever it would be of benefit to the defense 

[Senor Azul]

From the book The Rules of the Game by Eric Miklich--

In the National League in 1884, Ned Williamson of the Chicago White Stockings would hit 27 home runs. Only two were hit away from home, both being hit in Buffalo at Olympic Park. Williamson was a  left-handed batter and it has been stated that the right-field fence at Lake Front Park, Chicago's home field, was less than 200 feet from home plate. This was the shortest fence in the league. Buffalo had the second smallest park in the National League. In fact three other White Stockings hit over 20 home runs that season. Chicago hit 142 for the season which was an unheard of number for the time. No team in either the American Association or the Union Association had more than 40.

Not until the National League and American Association of Base Ball Club written rules, in 1889, was this issue addressed. The rules stated that any fair ball hit out of the field of play less than 210 feet from home base was only a double. The distance was changed to 235 feet for the 1892 season.

Williamson's mark would not be broken until 1919 when Boston Red Sox left fielder and pitcher Babe Ruth would hit 29.

 

[noumpere]

The decision sound correct to me. (I am assuming that the "spectator area" was in foul territory or that the ball hit the ground in play at some point.  If the ball went directly off the outfielder's head and over the outfield fence in fair territory, this is a home run.)

 

The key is that the ball had enough of it's own impetus to head out of play (we would ignore the direction change here).

If the ball was nearly stopped and then kicked out of play (as in your later example), then the award is two bases from the time of the kick.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Guest Nor-Cal Hooks said:

I argued that if it is correct, then we can just kick the ball out of play whenever it would be of benefit to the defense 

Kicking the ball out of play intentionally warrants two bases from time of kick.  The rule was made specifically to address the scenario you present.   This is why they specifically told you it wasn't deliberate.  And why your response to them was nonsensical.   Now, if you want to try to "accidentally" kick the ball out of play that is your choice to attempt.

Batted ball deflected out of play by an outfielder is two bases time of pitch.   If the fielder had in some way possessed it before knocking it out of play it would be two bases from that point.  

[Senor Azul]

OBR rule 5.05 When the Batter Becomes a Runner

(a) The batter becomes a runner when:

(9) Any fair fly ball is deflected by the fielder into the stands, or over the fence into foul territory, in which case the batter shall be entitled to advance to second base; but if deflected into the stands or over the fence in fair territory, the batter shall be entitled to a home run. However, should such a fair fly be deflected at a point less than 250 feet from home plate, the batter shall be entitled to two bases only

 

(7) Any fair ball which, either before or after touching the ground, passes through or under a fence, or through or under a scoreboard, or through any opening in the fence or scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery, or vines on the fence, or which sticks in a fence or scoreboard, in which case the batter and the runners shall be entitled to two bases;

[beerguy55]

15 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

However, should such a fair fly be deflected at a point less than 250 feet from home plate, the batter shall be entitled to two bases only

I interpret this to mean that a line drive that goes of F6's head and somehow goes over the wall would not be a home run?

[Rich Ives]

28 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I interpret this to mean that a line drive that goes of F6's head and somehow goes over the wall would not be a home run?

Not in a big diamond park but in small diamond ball many OF fences are less than 250 feet so it's possible that it could be a HR..

[noumpere]

34 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I interpret this to mean that a line drive that goes of F6's head and somehow goes over the wall would not be a home run?

If it goes over the fence in fair territory and more than 250' from home (I think that includes all MLB parks), it's a home run.

[beerguy55]

14 minutes ago, noumpere said:

If it goes over the fence in fair territory and more than 250' from home (I think that includes all MLB parks), it's a home run.

 

19 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Not in a big diamond park but in small diamond ball many OF fences are less than 250 feet so it's possible that it could be a HR..

So, what's the point of the language of the rule?  "should such a fair fly be deflected at a point less than 250 feet from home plate, the batter shall be entitled to two bases only"

If the home run fence is only 200 feet away, it's a home run if the ball clears the fence on its own, but only a double if it bounces off the outfielder's glove?   The rule talks about where it's deflected, not how far the fence is.

As worded, if the fence is <325 feet in the corner, like some MLB parks (Pesky Pole is 300 feet), and the ball gets deflected at 240 feet, and goes over the fence, it would be a double.

[JSam21]

13 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

So, what's the point of the language of the rule?  "should such a fair fly be deflected at a point less than 250 feet from home plate, the batter shall be entitled to two bases only"

If the home run fence is only 200 feet away, it's a home run if the ball clears the fence on its own, but only a double if it bounces off the outfielder's glove?   The rule talks about where it's deflected, not how far the fence is.

As worded, if the fence is <325 feet in the corner, like some MLB parks (Pesky Pole is 300 feet), and the ball gets deflected at 240 feet, and goes over the fence, it would be a double.

No... Because under OBR any ball going over a fence in fair territory less than 250'  is a 2 base award. 

[beerguy55]

11 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

No... Because under OBR any ball going over a fence in fair territory less than 250'  is a 2 base award. 

OK, I see that now.  Fence needs to be 250.

Still doesn't answer the question about the deflection - language says the point where it was deflected, not the distance of the fence.  Otherwise it would just be a redundant statement...if the fence is under 250 it doesn't matter if it's deflected or not, it's still a double.

[Rich Ives]

27 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

 

If the home run fence is only 200 feet away, it's a home run if the ball clears the fence on its own, but only a double if it bounces off the outfielder's glove?   

Yes. 

BUT the rule was written for pro parks. You can't apply the distance requirement to a small diamond

[Guest Carl]

41 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

So, what's the point of the language of the rule?  "should such a fair fly be deflected at a point less than 250 feet from home plate, the batter shall be entitled to two bases only"

If the home run fence is only 200 feet away, it's a home run if the ball clears the fence on its own, but only a double if it bounces off the outfielder's glove?   The rule talks about where it's deflected, not how far the fence is.

As worded, if the fence is <325 feet in the corner, like some MLB parks (Pesky Pole is 300 feet), and the ball gets deflected at 240 feet, and goes over the fence, it would be a double.

The 2013 LL rule book (6.09d) substitutes 165 ft for Majors and below, 200 feet for Intermediate and 250 feet for Jr/Sr/Big League.  Not sure if that hasn't changed but I assume it is still the same.

[Rich Ives]

4 minutes ago, Guest Carl said:

The 2013 LL rule book (6.09d) substitutes 165 ft for Majors and below, 200 feet for Intermediate and 250 feet for Jr/Sr/Big League.  Not sure if that hasn't changed but I assume it is still the same.

Yes it does - but the question was about OBR.

[JSam21]

28 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

OK, I see that now.  Fence needs to be 250.

Still doesn't answer the question about the deflection - language says the point where it was deflected, not the distance of the fence.  Otherwise it would just be a redundant statement...if the fence is under 250 it doesn't matter if it's deflected or not, it's still a double.

Sometimes... things, especially rule books, are redundant. 

[Tborze]

@Senor AzulAre you a computer

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

OK, I see that now.  Fence needs to be 250.

Still doesn't answer the question about the deflection - language says the point where it was deflected, not the distance of the fence.  Otherwise it would just be a redundant statement...if the fence is under 250 it doesn't matter if it's deflected or not, it's still a double.

It's poorly written.  It means if it's deflected and then goes over a fence that is < 250'

[kylehutson]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's poorly written.  It means if it's deflected and then goes over a fence that is < 250'

I think it's clearly NOT what you think.

It says "deflected at a point less than 250 feet" That to me, means what @beerguy55 says. A line drive hits off F6's head and goes over the outfield fence - still a two-base award, not a HR.

[Aging_Arbiter]

7 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

A line drive hits off F6's head and goes over the outfield fence - still a two-base award, not a HR.

Tell that to Canseco

 

Then again, if it is truly off of an F6's head, and goes over OF fence, you're probably in line to attend a funeral.

[kylehutson]

6 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Tell that to Canseco

 

Then again, if it is truly off of an F6's head, and goes over OF fence, you're probably in line to attend a funeral.

F6 used to show that he was under 250' from home plate. Canseco was near the fence - well over 250' from the plate, so this doesn't apply.

And yes, it would have to be a walloping hit to deflect off somebody that close to the plate and still go over the fence in fair territory.

[noumpere]

It's related to this rule:

 

(5) A fair ball passes over a fence or into the stands at a distance
from home base of 250 feet or more. Such hit entitles
the batter to a home run when he shall have touched
all bases legally. A fair fly ball that passes out of the playing
field at a point less than 250 feet from home base
shall entitle the batter to advance to second base only;

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's related to this rule:

 

(5) A fair ball passes over a fence or into the stands at a distance
from home base of 250 feet or more. Such hit entitles
the batter to a home run when he shall have touched
all bases legally. A fair fly ball that passes out of the playing
field at a point less than 250 feet from home base
shall entitle the batter to advance to second base only;

I understand this is the rule that says the fence must be 250 feet or more for it to be a home run.  Like I said, the language in the other rule says it was deflected less than 250 feet from home plate.   Otherwise, the language doesn't need to be there.  Deflected or not, if the fence isn't 250 feet, it's not a HR.  It should say "should such a deflected ball leave fair territory at a point less than 250 feet from home plate..."  It doesn't...and I'm not sure it's a grammar mistake.

If it's poorly written, as you suggest, then so be it, but I find it odd they felt the need to write anything at all.

 

3 hours ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

Tell that to Canseco

 

Then again, if it is truly off of an F6's head, and goes over OF fence, you're probably in line to attend a funeral.

Canseco was less than ten feet from the wall, so certainly over 300 feet from home plate.   I'm thinking of a scenario where a ball is deflected about 245 feet from the plate, and hits Pesky's Pole which is only about 295 feet from home plate - still highly unlikely, but probably the highest chance scenario of meeting the conditions of my hypothetical.

[noumpere]

I think(and this is hust supposition) that it's just left over from some "dead ball" era when parks were smaller and when they'd let spectators on the grounds behind a rope -- some of those ropes might have been less that 250'

I'm pretty sure there's another rule on the field dimensions that makes all of this moot for current and future MLB parks.

If the rule really meant "deflected at a point <250'" -- how would an umpire measure / rule on that?  Ther's no marking / line of the outfield grass 250' from home.  It would be impossible to enforce.

[Senor Azul]

From the MLB website:

No Major League ballparks are exactly alike, but certain aspects of the field of play must be uniform across baseball…

The rulebook states that parks constructed by professional teams after June 1, 1958, must have a minimum distance of 325 feet between home plate and the nearest fence, stand or other obstruction on the right- and left-field foul lines, and 400 feet between home plate and the nearest fence, stand or other obstruction in center field. However, some clubs have been permitted to construct parks after that date with dimensions shorter than those specified…

The specification on minimum park dimensions was put into place due to the stadium controversy surrounding the Brooklyn Dodgers' move to Los Angeles in 1958. The Dodgers played at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum while Dodger Stadium was being built, but the Coliseum was not designed to hold baseball games. The Coliseum's left-field fence was roughly 250 feet away from home plate and the club had to erect a 40-foot-high screen to protect against short home runs. The specification is not strictly enforced, however, so long as teams do not build parks that egregiously violate the rule. For example, Petco Park opened in 2004 and is officially 396 feet in center field, and Oriole Park at Camden Yards opened in 1992 and is 318 feet down the right-field line.