Missed call?

[Guest Chuck]

During the CWS Arkansas vs Texas. there was a play with R1 on first, it was a hit and run, as R1 gets to second, and the ball was batted and the F6 fields the ball up the middle. R1 had arrived at 2B, by the time F6 released the ball towards 1B. The ball sailed into the first base dug out. They put the batter(R2) on second and put R1 on 3rd. Why wasn't R1 awared home? He was at 2B at the time of the throw?

[johnpatrick]

First play by an infielder is a time of pitch (TOP) award.

[noumpere]

1 minute ago, johnpatrick said:

First play by an infielder is a time of pitch (TOP) award.

Unless all runners INCLUDING the BR have advanced -- the BR hadn't.

[JaxRolo]

YEP TOP

[Guest NJ Coach]

Am not an ump, but I've always thought that on a throw out of play (dead ball) runners get base being run toward and also the next base after taht.   Was R1 heading to third base when the ball was dead ? From your description I infer he was stopped at second and not heading to third, so he'd only get the next base.

This is incorrect ?

[Guest NJ Coach]

Well, nevermind my above post.  I looked it up and learned my lay understanding (for 30 years) was wrong. Oh well.

[scrounge]

3 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Am not an ump, but I've always thought that on a throw out of play (dead ball) runners get base being run toward and also the next base after taht.   Was R1 heading to third base when the ball was dead ? From your description I infer he was stopped at second and not heading to third, so he'd only get the next base.

This is incorrect ?

Yes, this is incorrect, at least as far as baseball. Awards are from a specified time, either time of throw, time of pitch, or time of infraction. In this case, time of pitch - when the pitcher made a movement committing him to pitch - is the relevant time.

As an example, have you ever seen a batter hit a deep fair ball that bounces out of play after he's already past 2B and would have made 3B easily? Even though he may already be past 2B, he still has to go back to 2B on a 'ground rule double'. Well, it's not because of any ground rule, but simply that is a two base award from time of pitch.

[CJK]

You are incorrect.

A ball thrown out of play awards all runners two bases, every time.  If it's the first play by an infielder (unless, as noted above ALL runners including the BR have already advanced at least one base), then the award is based on the runners' bases last legally touched at the time of the pitch.  On all other throws out of play, the award is based on the runners' bases last legally touched at the time the throw was released.

[Kevin_K]

49 minutes ago, CJK said:

You are incorrect.

A ball thrown out of play awards all runners two bases, every time.  

What about when F1, while engaged with the rubber, attempts to pick off a runner and throws the ball out of play?

Or perhaps when F1 pitches and the pitch sails out of play?

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Am not an ump, but I've always thought that on a throw out of play (dead ball) runners get base being run toward and also the next base after taht.   Was R1 heading to third base when the ball was dead ? From your description I infer he was stopped at second and not heading to third, so he'd only get the next base.

This is incorrect ?

 

1 hour ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Well, nevermind my above post.  I looked it up and learned my lay understanding (for 30 years) was wrong. Oh well.

Google "40 baseball rules myths" and see what else you "know for sure that just ain't so."

[CJK]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

What about when F1, while engaged with the rubber, attempts to pick off a runner and throws the ball out of play?

Or perhaps when F1 pitches and the pitch sails out of play?

You downvoted me because you conflated a pitched ball with a thrown ball?

[Kevin_K]

6 hours ago, CJK said:

You downvoted me because you conflated a pitched ball with a thrown ball?

I did no such thing.

I simply asked two questions in response to your assertion that a ball thrown out of play always is awarded two bases.

[Richvee]

6 hours ago, CJK said:

You downvoted me because you conflated a pitched ball with a thrown ball?

A throw to 1B from the rubber is not a pitch. Always be careful using "always"

[Richvee]

Something to keep in mind in the OP. I did not see this play and it sounds like F6 made no attempt to retire R1 at second. However, for the benefit  of those learning. A play or attempted play is defined as a legitimate effort by a defensive player to retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or throwing to another fielder in an attempt to retire a runner.

Let's say F6 fields  the ball, and starts to run towards 2B in an attempt to retire R1. F6 gets to the bag late, R1 is safe at 2B. Now F6 throws wild to 1B to get BR who has not yet reached 1B and throws the ball away.

Ruling: F6's attempt to retire R1 is the first play by an infielder. The correct award would be R1awarded home, BR awarded 2B. (2 bases from where the runners were at the Time Of Throw. )

 

[CJK]

10 hours ago, Richvee said:

a legitimate effort by a defensive player to retire a runner

What if F5 fields a ball and then steps and waves his glove toward R3 in an attempt to hold him at 3B, and then air-mails F3?  Or if F3 fields and then squares his body and feints a throw to 3B for the same reason?  Is "legitimate" purely a judgment call?

[noumpere]

3 minutes ago, CJK said:

What if F5 fields a ball and then steps and waves his glove toward R3 in an attempt to hold him at 3B, and then air-mails F3?  Or if F3 fields and then squares his body and feints a throw to 3B for the same reason?  Is "legitimate" purely a judgment call?

It is judgment, but there is specific guidance in MLBUM (and others):

5.1 PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY
The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases
(Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):
A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has
possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a
runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or
actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the
runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an
attempted play.
EXAMPLES:
A play or attempted play:
(1) Runners on first and second, ground ball to the shortstop, who makes a swipe at the
runner from second but misses and then throws beyond first base into the stands.
Ruling: The swipe by the shortstop is an attempted play; thus the throw to first is not the
first play by an infielder (even though it is the first throw), and the proper award of bases
would be from the time of the throw.
(2) Runner on first and ground ball to second baseman who flips ball to short to get runner
from first but who is safe. Shortstop throws beyond first into the stands.
Ruling: The flip by the second baseman to the shortstop is an attempted play, even
though unsuccessful. The throw to first is not the first play by an infielder and thus runner
should be placed from the time of the throw. Runner who was on first would score and
batter-runner would be placed at second.
Not a play or attempted play:
(1) A fake or a feint to a base but not actually throwing, even though the fielder draws his
arm back to feint a throw.
(2) A pitcher feinting a throw toward a base to hold or check a runner's progress in order to
complete an appeal play at another base.
(3) Runner on first, ground ball to the shortstop, who starts to flip the ball to the second
baseman but does not and throws the ball beyond first and out of play.
Ruling: The feint to the second baseman is not considered a play or attempted play, and
award of bases is from the time of the pitch.
(4) Runners on first and third, runner on first stealing as ground ball is hit to shortstop. The
shortstop feints a throw home but does not throw-instead throws to first and into the
stands; during this time the runner from first has rounded second base.
Ruling: The feint by the shortstop toward home is not considered a play or attempted
play; thus the throw beyond first is the first play by an infielder and awards should be
made from the time of the pitch.

[beerguy55]

18 hours ago, CJK said:

You downvoted me because you conflated a pitched ball with a thrown ball?

The first example IS a thrown ball.

[Guest Guest Chuck]

He did not attempt to tag the BR out at second. Just the runner established second base before the ball was even fielded. The F6 looked at the BR, but no play was attempted, F6 then threw to F3 and the ball went into the dug out. Based upon that, then the rule was applied from the time of the pitch and the runner was on first. Then there wasn't a missed call. Thanks for helping me understand the call

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, CJK said:

What if F5 fields a ball and then steps and waves his glove toward R3 in an attempt to hold him at 3B, and then air-mails F3?  Or if F3 fields and then squares his body and feints a throw to 3B for the same reason?  Is "legitimate" purely a judgment call?

You ump softball too, right?  Just curious - In softball this is always TOT, is it not?  (ie. there is no provision for infielder first play)

[Mister B]

On 6/19/2018 at 10:54 AM, Guest NJ Coach said:

Well, nevermind my above post.  I looked it up and learned my lay understanding (for 30 years) was wrong. Oh well.

I'm going to say, thank you. Most coaches/fans wouldn't look it up and then get it wrong for another 30 years. 

[CJK]

5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Just curious - In softball this is always TOT, is it not?

I'm really glad you asked this question.

In USSSA and USA Softball Fastpitch, always TOT.  (I did not realize this was true.)  In USSSA Slow Pitch, same as OBR, including the "first play" language.

It's always good to have a reason to stick your nose back into a rule book.

[isired]

Well, nevermind my above post.  I looked it up and learned my lay understanding (for 30 years) was wrong. Oh well.

This was the case for our local little league in 7s and 8s play, where there were 'house rules' to limit runners advancing at will on throws that got past the intended recipient (not out of play). It was "base he was headed to plus one" so it mattered if the runner was going back to a base or not.

I can only imagine this language was put in place by a guy, years before I came along, who thought this was based on a real OBR rule...

[UmpCast_Wes]

Okay I'll do the shameless plug thing here. UmpCast did an episode over common baseball rules myths in Episode 6.  We cover the "base the runner is going to plus one" myth as well as several others.  I have to say it's been one of our more popular episodes, and we've been considering doing another episode about rules myths in the future.