ball hits hand while swinging and goes in fair territorry

[KrazyRay]

The batter swung at a pitch and the ball hit both the knob of the bat and the batter's hand. The ball went into fair territory. Would that be treated like a regular hit? Thanks

[maven]

6 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

So we should umpire by consensus? Ask for a show of hands who thought it hit the batter and who thought it hit the bat? Oh, no. Wait. You said -- and I quote -- "everyone in the park knows..."

It's not about them. It's about us. We have to judge what it hit first, and sometimes we're in doubt. When in doubt, it hit hand first.

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, ElkOil said:

So we should umpire by consensus? Ask for a show of hands who thought it hit the batter and who thought it hit the bat? Oh, no. Wait. You said -- and I quote -- "everyone in the park knows..."

Everyone knows it hit the batter. They don't know there's a debate. If you can't decide - it hit the batter first. 

[beerguy55]

The short answer to your question is "no".  It is a dead ball, and a strike.

Determining what would actually happen depends what it hit first.

If it hit the hand first, it's a strike and a dead ball - if it's strike three he's out.

If it hit the knob, then hit his hand, it would just be a dead ball, but treated like a foul ball - no different than hitting the ball into into your foot while still in the batter's box.   A K would not occur here.

A tie?  Pick one.   I'm leaning towards strike, dead ball, runners (if any) return, batter out if strike three....probably depending on what I see/hear - the balance between hearing the ball hit the knob, and seeing the batter bouncing around holding his hand (because what I heard may have also been the ball hitting bone).

In the end, the final call only matters if there were two strikes on the batter.

 

[kylehutson]

I'm pretty sure it hit his hand first. Dead ball. Strike.

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

The short answer to your question is "no".  It is a dead ball, and a strike.

Determining what would actually happen depends what it hit first.

If it hit the hand first, it's a strike and a dead ball - if it's strike three he's out.

If it hit the knob, then hit his hand, it would just be a dead ball, but treated like a foul ball - no different than hitting the ball into into your foot while still in the batter's box.   A K would not occur here.

A tie?  Pick one.   I'm leaning towards strike, dead ball, runners (if any) return, batter out if strike three....probably depending on what I see/hear - the balance between hearing the ball hit the knob, and seeing the batter bouncing around holding his hand (because what I heard may have also been the ball hitting bone).

In the end, the final call only matters if there were two strikes on the batter.

 

If you can't tell which it hit first - choose hand.

[LRZ]

3 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

If you can't tell which it hit first - choose hand.

Why is this the "default" call? Not arguing, just interested in the rationale.

[Rich Ives]

7 minutes ago, LRZ said:

Why is this the "default" call? Not arguing, just interested in the rationale.

Because everyone in the park knows it hit the batter.

[blue23ll]

3 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Because everyone in the park knows it hit the batter.

Everyone in the park THINKS they know it hit the batter. Either way, if you saw the ball hit the batter, and the batter was swinging, its a dead ball strike or foul ball. 

[Replacematt]

44 minutes ago, blue23ll said:

Everyone in the park THINKS they know it hit the batter. Either way, if you saw the ball hit the batter, and the batter was swinging, its a dead ball strike or foul ball. 

We're talking about if you can't tell. It's simple physics. If it hit both, and it's indiscernable, chances are it hit the hand first. 

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, blue23ll said:

Everyone in the park THINKS they know it hit the batter. Either way, if you saw the ball hit the batter, and the batter was swinging, its a dead ball strike or foul ball. 

Yes, but that could matter if three were two strikes to start with.

And, it's the same assumption we'd use if the batter was trying to get out of the way -- default to awarding first.

[ElkOil]

2 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Because everyone in the park knows it hit the batter.

So we should umpire by consensus? Ask for a show of hands who thought it hit the batter and who thought it hit the bat? Oh, no. Wait. You said -- and I quote -- "everyone in the park knows..."

[ElkOil]

22 minutes ago, maven said:

It's not about them. It's about us. We have to judge what it hit first, and sometimes we're in doubt. When in doubt, it hit hand first.

Agreed. I was being facetious.

[LRZ]

There is a similar discussion about "default" calls currently in a basketball forum. FWIW, I don't have a default HBP, at least not that I'm aware of. I see or hear "ball on bat" or "ball on hand," how the ball rebounds, how the batter reacts, and I make a call! Although I won't second-guess myself then and there, if my partner has information, I'll certainly listen. If I'm in doubt, it will be later, after the game, when I'm going over my performance--did I get that call right?

Works for me, and I don't offer it as a rule everyone should follow. In my work life, we used to say about judges, "Often wrong, never in doubt!" I'm also reminded of the famous Bill Klem quote, "It ain't nothin' until I call it."

[Tborze]

Sometime, we just have to umpire!

[Rich Ives]

There are at least two posts missing. One were maven said it hit the hand first if it's undetermined  and another where I continued to say why it hit the hand first if it's undetermined. 

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

There are at least two posts missing. One were maven said it hit the hand first if it's undetermined  and another where I continued to say why it hit the hand first if it's undetermined. 

I think those posts got "voted" to the top.  Sort in post order, not vote order (and "post order" should be the default!)