Knee knocks hand off base

[UmpRandy]

This was an NCAA softball game but could apply for any defensive play I'm thinking. . . 

Runner does slide-by in to base (slides to side of base and grabs with hand as she/he slides by). Runner has hold of corner of base.

Fielder (straddling base) receives throw, drops to knee to apply tag and in doing so, knocks/pushes hand off of base,

Tag is applied. Runner called out.  

Fielder did not intentionally push hand off base.

Obstruction? Or just a simple out?

[Replacematt]

3 minutes ago, UmpRandy said:

This was an NCAA softball game but could apply for any defensive play I'm thinking. . . 

Runner does slide-by in to base (slides to side of base and grabs with hand as she/he slides by). Runner has hold of corner of base.

Fielder (straddling base) receives throw, drops to knee to apply tag and in doing so, knocks/pushes hand off of base,

Tag is applied. Runner called out.  

Fielder did not intentionally push hand off base.

Obstruction? Or just a simple out?

Out.

[ofhs93]

I would need to see this one...the defender can't force a runner off the bag...the visual of this is really needed to make a good decision.

[noumpere]

99.5% of the time, this is an out -- it happens accidentally as part of making the play.  Only if there's an intentional push off the base is this going to be OBS.

[LRZ]

Obstruction while holding the ball? Wouldn't it be a "don't do that"?

[Stk004]

20 minutes ago, noumpere said:

99.5% of the time, this is an out -- it happens accidentally as part of making the play.  Only if there's an intentional push off the base is this going to be OBS.

It's not really OBS, right? @LRZ makes another good point because the fielder has the ball. The MLBUM instructs us to just put the runner back on the base and tell the fielder he can't do that, but I don't recall it being referred to as obstruction. 

As for the OP, it sounds like the correct call was made. 

[beerguy55]

I had a similar instance in Little League.  I was F6 and there was a ball in the dirt so R1 tried to advance to second.  R1 actually tripped and fell and pretty much crawled the last five feet to the base and put his hand on it before the ball arrived.  F2 threw to me and I made a swipe tag just after he arrived, and I knocked his hand off the bag.

It was clearly unintentional on my part - I was simply much larger than the other kid and he had no strength to keep his hand on the bag.

Ump simply ruled him safe, he even knew I didn't do it on purpose - but it didn't seem fundamentally fair to call the kid out.

And I agree....at a higher level, perhaps not.

[noumpere]

 

1 hour ago, Stk004 said:

The MLBUM instructs us to just put the runner back on the base and tell the fielder he can't do that, but I don't recall it being referred to as obstruction.

Do you have a reference for that?  I couldn't find it in a quick search.

 

Thanks

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, LRZ said:

Obstruction while holding the ball? Wouldn't it be a "don't do that"?

There are cases where a fielder holding the ball can commit OBS (a blatant trip by a fielder lying on the ground when the runner is swerving past, is the most common example on the interwebs).

[LRZ]

8 minutes ago, noumpere said:

There are cases where a fielder holding the ball can commit OBS (a blatant trip by a fielder lying on the ground when the runner is swerving past, is the most common example on the interwebs).

Do you have a reference for that? I think we agree it's not allowed, but perhaps we disagree about the label.

[Stk004]

34 minutes ago, noumpere said:

 

Do you have a reference for that?  I couldn't find it in a quick search.

 

Thanks

Sure thing. Retrieved from the backseat of my car just now. 

2016 MLBUM (2017 on the way) 7.30 pg. 88

7.30 RUNNER PUSHED OFF BASE

If in the judgement of an umpire, a runner is pushed or forced off a base by a fielder, intentionally or unintentionally, at which the runner would have otherwise been called safe, the umpire has the authority and discretion under the circumstances to return the runner to the base he was forced off following the conclusion of the play.

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, LRZ said:

Do you have a reference for that? I think we agree it's not allowed, but perhaps we disagree about the label.

I'll have to look when I'm back with my references.

1 hour ago, Stk004 said:

Sure thing. Retrieved from the backseat of my car just now. 

 

Thanks.  I amend my "OBS" answer above.

[catsbackr]

On sorta the same topic, I've never understood the practice of sliding past the base and reaching out with your hands.  It seems like it would be much easier to just slide straight into the base.  I know in softball the fielders have a tendency to block or partially block the base.  If the runners slid directly into the base, while wearing steel cleats, that would put a quick end to that practice I would wager.

[Richvee]

Isn't this the kind of play where we need to judge if the runner is in control of his /her body? IOW, If their slide is complete,their momentum has stopped, their hand is on the bag, and only the force of the fielder's glove/knee knocks that hand off the bag, don't we have a safe call?

[Senor Azul]

From the 2016 BRD (section 459—Runner—No Body Control on Base, pp. 303-304):

NCAA Official Interpretation: Paronto:  “A legal tag that is forcefully applied to a runner can result in an out. When a runner is going into a base without body control and a forceful tag knocks him from the base, he is out.”

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  A forceful tag should not be grounds for protecting a runner from being tagged while off his base. (2013 WRIM, p. 144)

“A forceful tag is not, in itself, a knock or push by a fielder.” (2013 WRIM, p. 144, Fn 330)

Case Play:  R1, 1 out, 3-2 count. The batter singles to right. R1 attempts to go to third. As he slides headfirst over the top of the bag, he is able to hold the bag with the toes of his left foot. The third baseman applies a hard tag on R1’s foot, knocking it off the bag. Ruling:  At all levels, R1 is out. (2013 WRIM)

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, catsbackr said:

On sorta the same topic, I've never understood the practice of sliding past the base and reaching out with your hands.  It seems like it would be much easier to just slide straight into the base.  I know in softball the fielders have a tendency to block or partially block the base.  If the runners slid directly into the base, while wearing steel cleats, that would put a quick end to that practice I would wager.

It's a "dodge the tag" move. Sliding feet first into a gloved hand isn't really a problem.

[kstrunk]

12 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2016 BRD (section 459—Runner—No Body Control on Base, pp. 303-304):

NCAA Official Interpretation: Paronto:  “A legal tag that is forcefully applied to a runner can result in an out. When a runner is going into a base without body control and a forceful tag knocks him from the base, he is out.”

OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  A forceful tag should not be grounds for protecting a runner from being tagged while off his base. (2013 WRIM, p. 144)

“A forceful tag is not, in itself, a knock or push by a fielder.” (2013 WRIM, p. 144, Fn 330)

Case Play:  R1, 1 out, 3-2 count. The batter singles to right. R1 attempts to go to third. As he slides headfirst over the top of the bag, he is able to hold the bag with the toes of his left foot. The third baseman applies a hard tag on R1’s foot, knocking it off the bag. Ruling:  At all levels, R1 is out. (2013 WRIM)

Excellent!!! However, in the OP, I'm reading as the act of the fielder dropping to a knee knocked the runner off the base, not necessarily the tag. So if it was the knee of the fielder that shoved the runner off the bag, we put him back, if it's the tag, he's out. 

[catsbackr]

11 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

It's a "dodge the tag" move. Sliding feet first into a gloved hand isn't really a problem.

Yeah, but it would sure take care of the habit of blocking the bag with the leg!

[MT73]

2 hours ago, kstrunk said:

Excellent!!! However, in the OP, I'm reading as the act of the fielder dropping to a knee knocked the runner off the base, not necessarily the tag. So if it was the knee of the fielder that shoved the runner off the bag, we put him back, if it's the tag, he's out. 

I think a lot depends upon the timing of the play'

If it was bang-bang I would call him out.

If there was any type of delay in the runner being forced off the base I would call time and place him back on the bag.

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, kstrunk said:

Excellent!!! However, in the OP, I'm reading as the act of the fielder dropping to a knee knocked the runner off the base, not necessarily the tag. So if it was the knee of the fielder that shoved the runner off the bag, we put him back, if it's the tag, he's out. 

Hrbek-Gant

[Richvee]

8 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Hrbek-Gant

That was judged as Gant not having total control of his body.

 

[FleasOf1000Camels]

 

If Tim He-who-shall-not-be-named thinks that was a bad call, I'm certain it must have been the correct call.

[kstrunk]

That was a legal tag, forcefully applied, combined with a lack of body control. But if, hypothetically, Hrbek's hip knocked him off the bag rather than a forcefully applied tag, he should be put back. 

[Rich Ives]

57 minutes ago, kstrunk said:

That was a legal tag, forcefully applied, combined with a lack of body control. But if, hypothetically, Hrbek's hip knocked him off the bag rather than a forcefully applied tag, he should be put back. 

He pushed with his leg, not the tagging hand.

[LRZ]

I always thought the distinction was between a tag and a push, not particularly focusing on the part of the body that contacted the runner.