Appeal granted after batter misses home plate on home run

[Gfoley4]

was this the right call? Same for baseball? I would think no because this is not a live ball. http://thecomeback.com/ncaa/alabama-softball-player-homers-misses-plate-gets-tagged.html

[stkjock]

sure seems like the right call, you can hear someone yelling "touch the plate" over and over, PU & F2 was also in a great spot to see the miss of the base, whey F2 just didn't step on the plate I don't get.

[Gfoley4]

9 minutes ago, stkjock said:

sure seems like the right call, you can hear someone yelling "touch the plate" over and over, PU & F2 was also in a great spot to see the miss of the base, whey F2 just didn't step on the plate I don't get.

Yeah and that's all fine and well if this wasn't a home run making the ball dead. In baseball, wouldn't you need to put the ball in play first? Maybe NCAA softball allows dead ball appeals. 

[johnpatrick]

Not under OBR.  Ball needs to be live and handing a ball to F2 doesn't make it so.

[stkjock]

2 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

Yeah and that's all fine and well if this wasn't a home run making the ball dead. In baseball, wouldn't you need to put the ball in play first? Maybe NCAA softball allows dead ball appeals. 

yea, I was just reading up on the topic.  in this case, would the PU giving F2 ball be considered being back in play?

 

1 minute ago, johnpatrick said:

Not under OBR.  Ball needs to be live and handing a ball to F2 doesn't make it so.

so then the defense is put at a disadvantage no?  they cannot make an appeal or tag the runner out as the ball will not be made live until well after the BR has corrected his/her error.

[Gfoley4]

1 minute ago, stkjock said:

yea, I was just reading up on the topic.  in this case, would the PU giving F2 ball be considered being back in play?

 

 

No it still has to be the standard on the rubber with the batter and catcher ready, umpire points play

[noumpere]

You can have a dead ball appeal on this in FED.

 

I didn't see how far the BR got to see if she would legally be allowed to return to the plate under OBR / NCAA.  And, no, giving the new ball to the catcher does not make the ball live.

[stkjock]

1 minute ago, noumpere said:

You can have a dead ball appeal on this in FED.

 

I didn't see how far the BR got to see if she would legally be allowed to return to the plate under OBR / NCAA. 

she went well out of the dirt circle, near the on deck circle, nearly 2 steps from the dugout.

 

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And, no, giving the new ball to the catcher does not make the ball live.

thanks

[BrianC14]

This whole with the entire team out there celebrating like it's a walk-off home run, what the heck?   

It's the 3rd inning, and you've just tied the score.   This is her 7th home run of the season, right?  Here's a thought:  Act like you've done it before.  

If the teams were required to stay in the dugout on this sort of thing, she would undoubtedly have stepped on the plate, because she'd have been the only one there.   

And by the way.... did anyone else find it weird that the 3B coach (manager?) was hanging around the batter's box the minute she jumped over the plate?   What's he doing there?  I'm not a softball guy, so I don't know if this is something that is a softball culture thing or not, but in baseball, if the 3B coach is hanging around like that, I'm sending him back to his box.

[stkjock]

@BrianC14 - my guess, he's the one shouting "touch the plate" and was walking down to get the hitters attention, she was oblivious, in fact you can see a AC push her back toward the plate. 

[BrianC14]

Just now, stkjock said:

@BrianC14 - my guess, he's the one shouting "touch the plate" and was walking down to get the hitters attention, she was oblivious, in fact you can see a AC push her back toward the plate. 

I thought he might be stalking the umpires.   At the beginning of the video, U3 is going out on the hit, and he's actually walking out onto the field following the ball and U3.

Next thing you know, he's standing in the batter's box, and ready to pounce on the PU when the call is made.   I think you're right - he had to have seen it from the 3B line, but couldn't figure out what to do about it.

[stkjock]

http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2017/5/2/15516128/alabama-softball-player-tagged-out-celebrating-home-run-video

 

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Ole Miss, realizing what happened — appealed to the umpire.

Section 7.1.2 of the NCAA softball rule book deals with dead-ball appeals. Essentially the game ball that was hit over the fence needed to be replaced by the umpire, at which time Ole Miss were allowed to appeal to the umpire and tell him they wanted to get the runner out. This is why Ole Miss were able to get the out, even though the ball was over the fence.

This is clinched in section 12.9.1.

The runner is out after a proper appeal:

12.9.1 When she fails to touch each base (including home plate) in order when advancing or returning to a base. Either the runner or the missed base may be tagged.

 

[BrianC14]

Any softball umps here for this question:   at what physical point on the field would she be prevented from returning to touch the plate?   In the video, she's well out of the dirt circle, and in fact nearly in the dugout.

Heck the AC could be seen to be assisting her in returning - she literally grabs her by the belt and pulls her away from the dugout.   Crazy.

[Stk004]

So I was thinking about this from an OBR standpoint and I started looking for the rule addressing physically assisting a runner. I found where it says a coach can't physically assist a runner, but is there a rule pertaining to teammates? 

[Lindsay]

We made this a Case Play for OBR (obviously with the live ball appeal requirement, the whole question of who tagged/touched what first becomes irrelevant). Read the softball analysis here: http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/05/case-play-2017-5-dead-ball-missed-base.html

In short, NCAA softball, like NFHS baseball, allows dead ball appeals. NCAA baseball and OBR baseball do not.

In NCAA softball, the appeal must wait until "the player completes her base-running responsibilities." The CCA Umpires Manual directs the plate umpire to give a replacement ball to the defense "after the runner touches home plate," and the rulebook says the appeal many only occur after the umpire "places a new ball into the game" (NOTE: this is different than language about making the ball live, as would occur in OBR).

There's a softball rule about a runner being said to have acquired a base once she passes it by more than one body-length.

Still, "Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire’s judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities." The question is a matter of judgment. I'd wager that delaying putting a ball back into play until the runner physically touches the plate or loses her ability to do so (in NCAA softball, once she leaves the playing field, she is ineligible to return to correct a baserunning error) opens up a whole other can of worms because at the point, the umpire essentially visually communicates to both teams that the runner failed to touch the plate (think about how long it takes for a runner to return to the dugout after "scoring"), which an umpire should never do until and unless an appeal is made. So, consider the runner to have "touched" home plate once she acquired the base (see above), similar to a live ball situation where catcher & runner both miss their tags/touches. Only upon appeal would the "no touch" determination be enacted.

[CJK]

I think "Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire’s judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities" is vastly different that "Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire’s judgment, to correct their base running mistakes."

The umpire gave her ample opportunity to trot around the bases and touch them all, as evidenced by the fact that she successfully trotted around the bases and passed them all.  The fact that she failed to touch home plate had nothing to do with not having an opportunity to touch home plate.

[stkjock]

So under OBR, the defense is SOL if the secenario played out like the OP.  However if the offense didn't notice the missed base, defense could appeal once ball was in play, that would be interesting as you would then likely have a batter in the box, so does the best approach have F1 just walk to the plate and touch it while verbalizing, "he missed the base'?

[Gfoley4]

5 minutes ago, stkjock said:

So under OBR, the defense is SOL if the secenario played out like the OP.  However if the offense didn't notice the missed base, defense could appeal once ball was in play, that would be interesting as you would then likely have a batter in the box, so does the best approach have F1 just walk to the plate and touch it while verbalizing, "he missed the base'?

I mean, I guess you could do that. Or just step on the rubber to get the umpire to put the ball in play, then step off and throw to the catcher.

[stkjock]

Yea, didn't think,of that, I was focused that the batter might try to,swing and nullify the appeal. 

[Gfoley4]

27 minutes ago, stkjock said:

Yea, didn't think,of that, I was focused that the batter might try to,swing and nullify the appeal. 

another thing to remember, once a pitch is thrown you can't appeal a previous play

[stkjock]

3 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

another thing to remember, once a pitch is thrown you can't appeal a previous play

Yea , exactly why I was questioning how to handle it. 

[Tborze]

I'm putting my hat in the ring here. 

If a dead ball appeal is allowed in NCAA softball, as in FED, the batter would be out if the appeal was made, by coach or player, before the batter retouched. Since the batter was awarded 4 bases they still must touch all bases on the award. The batter failed to do so, and would be subject to appeal.  Advantage "defense". 

Ex: R3, pitch goes to the backstop. R3 comes in standing but misses the plate. Live ball. 

1. Coach calls "time" to appeal he missed HP. Runner not returning. We grant it, runner can't return. 

2. Player breaking back to the plate, coach yells "time", we don't grant it. Must tag runner, play still in process.

The only reason the batter went back to touch was the appeal process and the on-deck batter. 

[maven]

2 hours ago, stkjock said:

Yea, didn't think,of that, I was focused that the batter might try to,swing and nullify the appeal. 

If F1 steps off, his throw to F2 is not a pitch, and if the batter were to hit it that would be batter INT.

[Richvee]

What an odd play. Let's forget about softball for a minute...( I don't know their rules, and frankly, I don't care what the rule is )Assume FED baseball. Same scenario.

At what point after BR misses the plate, do you allow the dead ball appeal? My guess would be when he enters the dugout...consistent with the D3K ruling for FED.

In FED, would you call the BR out when the AC pulls him towards the plate to touch?

[stkjock]

12 minutes ago, maven said:

If F1 steps off, his throw to F2 is not a pitch, and if the batter were to hit it that would be batter INT.

So the batter would be out, would that the constitue  intervening action taking place, and thus the appeal cannot be made?