Appeal granted after batter misses home plate on home run

[noumpere]

12 hours ago, stkjock said:

Yea, didn't think,of that, I was focused that the batter might try to,swing and nullify the appeal. 

That's INT.  You're now going to have two outs.

[maven]

10 hours ago, stkjock said:

So the batter would be out, would that the constitue  intervening action taking place, and thus the appeal cannot be made?

Looking back, I see the OP is about softball. So my official answer is, "I have no idea."

For baseball, the answer is going to depend on the code. IIRC, in OBR, the defense loses the right to appeal if they play on a runner stealing. In FED, they don't.

[White47]

interesting thought that came to mind reading this. disclaimer: 1) this might be hard to follow 2) not directly about the OP, just something that got me to thinking. 3) OBR rule set for this question 4) this will never happen 5)never say never in baseball

OT hits a home run. and just like the OP he misses the plate. the pitcher engages rubber, batters in box and UIC puts it in play. pitcher steps off and throws into the catcher for the appeal. however, the batter interferes and hits the ball. can you still accept the appeal, after you enforce the interference?

OBR rule says: The right to appeal is canceled if EITHER TEAM initiates a play (5.09c)

This is just a portion of the craziness that comes from my mind

[noumpere]

16 minutes ago, Jwwhite47 said:

OBR rule says: The right to appeal is canceled if EITHER TEAM initiates a play (5.09c)

 

The offense isn't initiating a play.  Indeed, they are interfering with the defense's attempt to make the (appeal) play.

[White47]

13 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The offense isn't initiating a play.  Indeed, they are interfering with the defense's attempt to make the (appeal) play.

that's what I would say as well. Just thought it was an interesting case play.  

[stkjock]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

That's INT.  You're now going to have two outs.

ok, however, can the defense still make the appeal and take the run off the board

42 minutes ago, maven said:

Looking back, I see the OP is about softball. So my official answer is, "I have no idea."

For baseball, the answer is going to depend on the code. IIRC, in OBR, the defense loses the right to appeal if they play on a runner stealing. In FED, they don't.

I was talking about baseball, so only on making a play on a runner would they lose the right?

31 minutes ago, Jwwhite47 said:

interesting thought that came to mind reading this. disclaimer: 1) this might be hard to follow 2) not directly about the OP, just something that got me to thinking. 3) OBR rule set for this question 4) this will never happen 5)never say never in baseball

OT hits a home run. and just like the OP he misses the plate. the pitcher engages rubber, batters in box and UIC puts it in play. pitcher steps off and throws into the catcher for the appeal. however, the batter interferes and hits the ball. can you still accept the appeal, after you enforce the interference?

OBR rule says: The right to appeal is canceled if EITHER TEAM initiates a play (5.09c)

This is just a portion of the craziness that comes from my mind

exactly what my questions above were directed at.

[White47]

13 hours ago, stkjock said:

Yea, didn't think,of that, I was focused that the batter might try to,swing and nullify the appeal. 

11 hours ago, maven said:

If F1 steps off, his throw to F2 is not a pitch, and if the batter were to hit it that would be batter INT.

 

Did't see this or I probably wouldn't have asked my question. I guess my case play wasn't as unique as i thought. 

[White47]

20 minutes ago, stkjock said:

exactly what my questions above were directed at.

 

it's an interesting case play but I would prob go with noumpere answer.

36 minutes ago, noumpere said:

The offense isn't initiating a play.  Indeed, they are interfering with the defense's attempt to make the (appeal) play.

Interference is not a play, in fact it would be a dead ball. Which i guess in this case would still allow for the appeal, but I'm guessing you'd have to put the ball back in play???? 

most coaches don't know the appeal procedures anyway, so you could probably get by with about anything as  long ans you can sell it if they question it. 

[maven]

1 hour ago, stkjock said:

I was talking about baseball, so only on making a play on a runner would they lose the right?

Yes, for some reason I was thinking they're playing on R3 stealing, but this is clearly a missed base appeal.

If F1 throws (not pitches) to F2 and the batter interferes, there will indeed end up being 2 outs: the batter will be out for his INT, and the runner will eventually be out when the defense completes their appeal. They would not lose their right to appeal here because the attempted appeal is not a play (contrary to my imaginings, there's no runner to be played on).

Apologies all around for muddying the water.

[stkjock]

thank you @maven for the clarification. 

[beerguy55]

20 hours ago, BrianC14 said:

This whole with the entire team out there celebrating like it's a walk-off home run, what the heck?   

It's the 3rd inning, and you've just tied the score.   This is her 7th home run of the season, right?  Here's a thought:  Act like you've done it before.  

If the teams were required to stay in the dugout on this sort of thing, she would undoubtedly have stepped on the plate, because she'd have been the only one there.   

And by the way.... did anyone else find it weird that the 3B coach (manager?) was hanging around the batter's box the minute she jumped over the plate?   What's he doing there?  I'm not a softball guy, so I don't know if this is something that is a softball culture thing or not, but in baseball, if the 3B coach is hanging around like that, I'm sending him back to his box.

I would say it's more a female thing than a softball thing (male softball players don't do this that I've ever seen).

They say that boys need to play good to feel good and girls need to feel good to play good, so I guess celebrating like this is part of the feel good thing.

I never encouraged it on teams I coached - girls lined up for high fives after the play on the way back to the dugout.

As far as the coach - he was at 3b when the batter passed him - he went to the plate when he noticed she missed it and just couldn't get her attention.

[zoops]

It's been alluded to a bit in this thread, but when would the runner lose the right to come back and touch the base under OBR?  Leaving the dirt circle?  Entering the dugout?  

[noumpere]

12 hours ago, zoops said:

It's been alluded to a bit in this thread, but when would the runner lose the right to come back and touch the base under OBR?  Leaving the dirt circle?  Entering the dugout?  

Entering the dugout.  From MLBUM:

A runner may no longer return to touch a missed base — home plate or otherwise — after having
entered the dugout.

 

[grayhawk]

On 5/2/2017 at 7:36 PM, Richvee said:

What an odd play. Let's forget about softball for a minute...( I don't know their rules, and frankly, I don't care what the rule is )Assume FED baseball. Same scenario.

At what point after BR misses the plate, do you allow the dead ball appeal? My guess would be when he enters the dugout...consistent with the D3K ruling for FED.

In FED, would you call the BR out when the AC pulls him towards the plate to touch?

In Fed, the defense can make the dead ball appeal once the runner has had his opportunity to complete his base running responsibilities (8-2-6c).  He had his opportunity to complete his base running responsibilities once he passed the plate.  Once he has completed his award, and has not returned to touch the plate "immediately" (8-2-5) then I would allow the appeal.  Entering the dugout only prevents the runner from being able to come back to correct his error.  There is nothing in the rules that prevents the dead ball appeal until the runner enters the dugout.

[Sprink]

Would the AC grabbing her belt and pulling her back to the circle be considered assisting the runner?

[maven]

16 minutes ago, Sprink said:

Would the AC grabbing her belt and pulling her back to the circle be considered assisting the runner?

Is she a runner?

[beerguy55]

5 hours ago, maven said:

Is she a runner?

Has a person who has acquired home base (whether or not they missed it) stopped being a runner?   I'm thinking there's a differentiation by letter of the rule between a runner, a retired runner, and a scored runner, and I think for all intents and purposes a runner who has just scored is the same as a runner who was just put out.  And though she missed the plate, she is, at that time, a runner who has just scored.  

By spirit and intent, perhaps not?

[Sut'n Blue]

While we're on the subject:

OBR, score tied, bottom 9th. Batter hits what should be a walk-off homer but misses home and trots into his dugout. Defense is still on field and wants to appeal the batter missing the plate. Do we tell the offense, who thinks they've won, that they need to send a batter up to the plate so we can put the ball in play and give the defense a chance to appeal?

 

 

[maven]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Has a person who has acquired home base (whether or not they missed it) stopped being a runner?   I'm thinking there's a differentiation by letter of the rule between a runner, a retired runner, and a scored runner, and I think for all intents and purposes a runner who has just scored is the same as a runner who was just put out.

Correct on all counts. The rules distinguish between runners and scored/retired runners, and it's a distinction with a difference when it comes to ruling INT: the bar is lower for retired runners, who have less "protection" from INT (say, with a thrown ball) than a runner.

Once again, this is a softball question, so officially I have no idea. For baseball, coach INT/assistance is defined for runners. Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled how a scored runner could be assisted by a coach. If this happened near the dugout, I wouldn't even have seen it.

[beerguy55]

3 minutes ago, maven said:

Once again, this is a softball question, so officially I have no idea. For baseball, coach INT/assistance is defined for runners. Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled how a scored runner could be assisted by a coach. If this happened near the dugout, I wouldn't even have seen it.

Thanks.  I'm pretty sure softball is the same in this regard.

For your benefit, outside pitching (no lead-offs, no balks, no set position) the differences between softball and baseball are minor and subtle.  If you follow OBR you'll probably be right on a softball ruling 99% of the time. 

In fact, if you take a look at OSR, you can tell by the language that they started with a cut and paste of OBR.   

In a vital softball game I'd take an experienced exclusively baseball ump over an inexperienced exclusively softball ump.

[grayhawk]

5 hours ago, maven said:

Correct on all counts. The rules distinguish between runners and scored/retired runners, and it's a distinction with a difference when it comes to ruling INT: the bar is lower for retired runners, who have less "protection" from INT (say, with a thrown ball) than a runner.

Once again, this is a softball question, so officially I have no idea. For baseball, coach INT/assistance is defined for runners. Frankly, I'm a bit puzzled how a scored runner could be assisted by a coach. If this happened near the dugout, I wouldn't even have seen it.

The BRD describes a play where a runner misses the plate and (1) the on-deck batter, or (2) a preceding runner who has scored pushes him to return and touch the plate.  In Fed, the runner is out because runners can only be assisted by "viable" runners.  Since neither the on deck batter nor the preceding runner who has scored are "viable" runners then the assistance is not legal.  A "viable" runner can physically assist another runner as long as he doesn't pass him in the process.

This assistance in legal in both NCAA and OBR.

The other question is this - does the ball being dead matter on the coach's assistance?  It's unclear to me in Fed because in the several places in the rules that describe a coach physically assisting a runner, two places say it's illegal "during playing action."  Does the ball need to be live for it to be considered to be "playing action?"  As far as I know, "playing action" is not defined anywhere, but in the other places in the rule book that uses this terminology, playing action seems to indicate a live ball.  3.2.2 Situation A describes a coach assisting a player who trips and falls and that "this type of assistance" is allowed during a dead ball.  Of course, this begs the question, "Are other types of assistance not allowed during a dead ball?"  I would think that a coach that physically grabs or pushes a runner to touch a missed base should be illegal whether the ball is live or dead.

[maven]

8 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I would think that a coach that physically grabs or pushes a runner to touch a missed base should be illegal whether the ball is live or dead.

I disagree: this is an advantage infraction, and when the defense has no opportunity to play on a runner (ball is dead) physical assistance confers no advantage.

Naturally, there's a FED case play from 2003 or something that rules otherwise.

General philosophy should be: when in doubt, it's NOT a violation (except for safety).

[grayhawk]

5 hours ago, maven said:

I disagree: this is an advantage infraction, and when the defense has no opportunity to play on a runner (ball is dead) physical assistance confers no advantage.

Naturally, there's a FED case play from 2003 or something that rules otherwise.

General philosophy should be: when in doubt, it's NOT a violation (except for safety).

Batter hits a home run out of the park and misses third base, which the 3B coach sees, but the runner can't hear him because the fans are cheering loudly.  3B coach chases him down, grabs him and pushes him back towards third.  Did the physical assistance confer an advantage?

[maven]

6 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Batter hits a home run out of the park and misses third base, which the 3B coach sees, but the runner can't hear him because the fans are cheering loudly.  3B coach chases him down, grabs him and pushes him back towards third.  Did the physical assistance confer an advantage?

I thought we were talking about retired/scored runners.

[grayhawk]

4 minutes ago, maven said:

I thought we were talking about retired/scored runners.

I thought we were talking about physically assisting when the ball is dead.