Overrunning second on a force

[Guest Howard]

Fed rules. Runner on First. Ground ball to the infield. Runner slides into second but his momentum carries him past the base.

Question 1. Is this still considered a force? Would the defense just have to touch second base and not the runner to get the out?

Question 2. Could a run score if the third out was made this way?

[udbrky]

Once he's acquired 2nd, it's not a force, it's a tag play.

 

So yes, run scores if before the tag, this would be a timing play.

[Gfoley4]

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v825327083/pitchc-fowlers-run-confirmed-on-challenge-in-7th example of this being a time play

[MT73]

 If the runner had missed second base and the base was tagged before he could scramble back would this still be a timing play?

[stkjock]

1 hour ago, Gfoley4 said:

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v825327083/pitchc-fowlers-run-confirmed-on-challenge-in-7th example of this being a time play

Interesting that u2 never made a mechanic to signal out or safe

[Gfoley4]

3 minutes ago, stkjock said:

Interesting that u2 never made a mechanic to signal out or safe

he does raise the hammer, most of the replays switch away just as you can see his hand start to rise

[Rich Ives]

20 minutes ago, MT73 said:

 If the runner had missed second base and the base was tagged before he could scramble back would this still be a timing play?

Yes - a missed base is an appeal play.

[stkjock]

35 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

he does raise the hammer, most of the replays switch away just as you can see his hand start to rise

Watched the entire clip and yes I see it now, sorta late, side note, Fowler should be running poles for that lack of hustle. 

[ALStripes17]

Watched the entire clip and yes I see it now, sorta late, side note, Fowler should be running poles for that lack of hustle. 

I'm not so worried about Fowler there as I am Rizzo not sliding into 2B. THAT should raise the eyebrow!

Fowler had full expectation that the play at 2B was a force play. Not like he jogged in from 2B on a base hit.

[beerguy55]

3 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Yes - a missed base is an appeal play.

But an appeal on a missed base that was a force is a force.

[maven]

11 hours ago, udbrky said:

So yes, run scores if before the tag, this would be a timing play.

Oh, SO close!

10 hours ago, MT73 said:

 If the runner had missed second base and the base was tagged before he could scramble back would this still be a timing play?

No, but you're close, too!

Time to pick some nits!

[MT73]

43 minutes ago, maven said:

Oh, SO close!

No, but you're close, too!

Time to pick some nits!

Ok TIME play.

Would it be a force out?

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, MT73 said:

Ok TIME play.

Would it be a force out?

What was the status of the runner at the time of the infraction?

[MT73]

R1 was forced.

He misses 2B and is tagged out scrambling back to the base. Is this a force or time play?

Also-- would he have to be tagged or could the defense just step on the bag for the appeal?

[maven]

R1 was forced.

He misses 2B and is tagged out scrambling back to the base. Is this a force or time play?

Also-- would he have to be tagged or could the defense just step on the bag for the appeal?

If he missed the base, treat the tag as an appeal. R1 out before touching a base to which he was forced, so force out and no run scores if it's the third out. The fielder can also appeal by stepping on the base: Wendelstedt has abandoned the old J/R relaxed/unrelaxed action distinction and the difference it would make here.

If he touched the base, treat the tag as retiring a runner off the base. Not a force play, so PU must rule on the time play if it's the third out.

[Rich Ives]

11 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

But an appeal on a missed base that was a force is a force.

Only if an announced or obvious appeal. Otherwise in this play it's just being tagged out for being off a base.

[MT73]

21 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Only if an announced or obvious appeal. Otherwise in this play it's just being tagged out for being off a base.

So if tagged we should bang him out, score the run and only reverse this if they ask for an appeal?

What if they just step on the bag?

And is it not different if the missed base is the plate?

Doesn"t the rule state the runner must be tagged unless he is heading towards the dugout?

[beerguy55]

4 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Only if an announced or obvious appeal. Otherwise in this play it's just being tagged out for being off a base.

I was responding to your statement that it's an appeal play.  Since you said it's an appeal play, I made the assumption that it was an appeal play.

Your statement was in response to a question about tagging the base after the runner slides past and misses it.  In this case, the only way the runner would be out by the fielder touching the base is if it was an obvious appeal play, or if the umpire ruled that the runner didn't go far enough past the base to have acquired it.  Either way, it's by rule a force play third out and no run would score.

My assumption is if you opt to touch the runner in the missed base scenario you better be very clear it's an appeal, or it will be ruled a time play.

 

I'm also assuming that if you tag R1, umpire calls him out, determines it's not an appeal so scores the run, and R1 never touches the base, you can then immediately go touch second base and declare your appeal to save the run?

 

And if savvy runner, after being tagged out, goes and touches 2nd base then defense is SOL.

[maven]

5 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Only if an announced or obvious appeal. Otherwise in this play it's just being tagged out for being off a base.

It's obvious to me. You're welcome to rule otherwise in your game.

4 hours ago, MT73 said:

Doesn"t the rule state the runner must be tagged unless he is heading towards the dugout?

No: the procedure for appeal is always the same. The missed base (or unretouched base) or the offending runner may be tagged.

50 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm also assuming that if you tag R1, umpire calls him out, determines it's not an appeal so scores the run, and R1 never touches the base, you can then immediately go touch second base and declare your appeal to save the run?

By rule, that's correct, but it would be a preternaturally knowledgeable fielder who thought of appealing a runner who was already out.

51 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

And if savvy runner, after being tagged out, goes and touches 2nd base then defense is SOL.

That's an interesting claim, and one that is probably false. It's interesting because the rules (at least FED) do not specifically address whether a retired runner may correct a baserunning infraction. They provide a window for a runner to correct his error, but not one for a retired runner.

As I write that, I seem to recall a weird ruling from somewhere that allows this kind of correction after the third out in order to preclude a 4th out appeal. I guess the rationale for allowing such a touch is that if the defense can still play, then so can the offense. But that fails to consider that the offense has violated: they don't deserve the opportunity to continue running the bases once 3 are out.

[beerguy55]

17 minutes ago, maven said:

 

As I write that, I seem to recall a weird ruling from somewhere that allows this kind of correction after the third out in order to preclude a 4th out appeal. I guess the rationale for allowing such a touch is that if the defense can still play, then so can the offense. But that fails to consider that the offense has violated: they don't deserve the opportunity to continue running the bases once 3 are out.

Yes - it was half assumption half question on my part - but I was thinking exactly along those lines.  If defense is allowed an advantageous fourth out my assumption is the offense may, at times, have the opportunity to avoid one.   But, like you said, it's the offense who made the violation - how much leeway should they be allowed?