Obstruction on a pickoff

[MT73]

Say a runner is obstructed while diving back to a base during a pick off by either the pitcher or any other defensive player.

Is the runner automatically awarded the additional base?

For example, if F1 is obstructed while going back to first on a pickoff---is he awarded second base?

 

[noumpere]

Yes.

 

Note that the definiton of "obstructed" might vary among codes.

[MT73]

In this type of situation both Fed and Obs award an extra base.

But an interpretation that I just read in BRD states that in Fed an extra base not have to be awarded if the obstructed runner had no chance of making the extra base.

[ALStripes17]

In this type of situation both Fed and Obs award an extra base.
But an interpretation that I just read in BRD states that in Fed an extra base not have to be awarded if the obstructed runner had no chance of making the extra base.

Don't know where BRD gets that... Because FED mandates a minimum one base award on OBS... Period.

[VolUmp]

14 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Don't know where BRD gets that... Because FED mandates a minimum one base award on OBS... Period.

^ ^ ^  THIS.  ^ ^ ^

If anything, the confusion has come with OBR having a much more confusing (or sophisticated) definition of OBS ... with Type A (play being made on the obstructed runner) and Type B (no play on the obstructed runner) OBS.  Those who call FED and also other OBR-based games have to remember this and pregame it, just like balks, because the difference is pretty stark.  If you read about OBS in the OBR book, you'd need to think of FED OBS as all being type B. 

Just another thing that FED has "dumbed down" because the board doesn't think we officials can handle it.  I'll respect that when they learn to write a test that makes sense.

[MT73]

Thanks guys.

Since this is obstruction with a play (as in a run down) OBR also states to award the extra base.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

How 'bout this one, just for the sake of discussion:

Bases loaded.  Runner on 1st has been slow/lazy in returning to base, and F2 has noticed...he snaps a quick throw to 1st. F3 clearly obstructs runner diving back.

Can we award him 2nd base (which is already occupied)?

Would the fact that lead runner(s) were or were not attempting to advance have any effect on your decision? 

[GreyhoundAggie]

Not at all. Award him 2nd. All other runners move up if forced to by the award.

[refump10]

What Greyhound said.  I can only think of one instance where an award will be restricted is when with R1, B2 hits safely to RF.  F9 attempts to throw out B2 after he rounds the bag, and his throw goes into the dugout.  For some reason R1 has not made it to second yet at the time of the throw.  The award would be to give R1 third base and B2 would be to second. I'm trying to find a rule and/or case book reference backing this up, but haven't found it yet. Maybe some other member can help me out.

[Jimurray]

7 minutes ago, refump10 said:

What Greyhound said.  I can only think of one instance where an award will be restricted is when with R1, B2 hits safely to RF.  F9 attempts to throw out B2 after he rounds the bag, and his throw goes into the dugout.  For some reason R1 has not made it to second yet at the time of the throw.  The award would be to give R1 third base and B2 would be to second. I'm trying to find a rule and/or case book reference backing this up, but haven't found it yet. Maybe some other member can help me out.

8-3-3c-3, sorry can't paste it.

 

[refump10]

Thanks Jim.. I read right over that section three times while looking for it.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

How 'bout this one, just for the sake of discussion:

Bases loaded.  Runner on 1st has been slow/lazy in returning to base, and F2 has noticed...he snaps a quick throw to 1st. F3 clearly obstructs runner diving back.

Can we award him 2nd base (which is already occupied)?

Would the fact that lead runner(s) were or were not attempting to advance have any effect on your decision? 

In softball, there would be no extra award.  You can't award a runner a base that is already occupied.  Basically, umpire puts runners where he thinks they would have gone if there was no obstruction.  In your example, he just gets given first base.

eg. R1, R2, single to RF.  R1 is obstructed by F6 after rounding second base, but R2 stopped at third base because of a strong throw home.   R1 is "awarded" 2nd base, R2 stays at third.

[MooseLoop]

Since OBR defines obstruction to require that the fielder not be in the act of fielding the ball, can someone articulate how a first baseman obstructs an R1 returning to 1B on a pickoff from the pitcher or a throwdown by the catcher?  Isn't F3 about to receive the throw the instant it is released?

[noumpere]

2 minutes ago, MooseLoop said:

Since OBR defines obstruction to require that the fielder not be in the act of fielding the ball, can someone articulate how a first baseman obstructs an R1 returning to 1B on a pickoff from the pitcher or a throwdown by the catcher?  Isn't F3 about to receive the throw the instant it is released?

That's what I meant by "the definitions vary" in my first response.  But, if the runner is OBS before the ball is released by F1 / F2, that is OBS.  F3 can't be fielding the ball until it's been thrown.

[BT_Blue]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

That's what I meant by "the definitions vary" in my first response.  But, if the runner is OBS before the ball is released by F1 / F2, that is OBS.  F3 can't be fielding the ball until it's been thrown.

Also, how far away does the ball have to be before he is "in the act"? Can F2 have JUST released the ball and F3 be "in the act?"

[basejester]

1 hour ago, BT_Blue said:

Also, how far away does the ball have to be before he is "in the act"? Can F2 have JUST released the ball and F3 be "in the act?"

" . . . near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball, he may be considered 'in the act of receiving a ball'" (PBUC 7.27)

 

[noumpere]

15 hours ago, BT_Blue said:

Also, how far away does the ball have to be before he is "in the act"? Can F2 have JUST released the ball and F3 be "in the act?"

Yes.

[Rich Ives]

OBR: It's not just in the act. It also requires that it is necessary for the fielder to be where he is. Probably not necessary on a pickoff.

Rule 6.01(h ) Comment (Rule 2.00 (Obstruction ) Comment ):
If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in
flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must
occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered
“in the act of fielding a ball.”

[dumbdumb]

And everyone does know that this emphasis came about because players were being taught/coached, specifically/and intentionally on pick offs, to drop that knee and full body in front of the whole/entire base at first, each and every time to block the runner off the bag and get the out every single time, not like the way you see in MLB where they catch and put a quick glove tag on the runner or a swipe tag if he tries for the back of the bag, while giving the runner the back half of the bag.

Of course MLB has a way of dealing/policing, rightly/or wrongly, for certain intentional situations that might arise on the field of play from time to time, and other levels may use some of these techniques also, for better or worse.

[noumpere]

4 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:

And everyone does know that this emphasis came about because players were being taught/coached, specifically/and intentionally on pick offs, to drop that knee and full body in front of the whole/entire base at first,

This action is specifically called out in NCAA as being OBS.  again, a definition diference between the codes.

[MooseLoop]

So if our F3 is set up in a position that allows R1 a clear path to the base, and the pitcher's or catcher's throw draws him into impeding the runner, then probably no obstruction?  But if F3 is set up in an obstructing position, and he impedes the runner while receiving the throw, then possibly/probably obstruction?  And if F3 unnecessarily moves into an obstructing position while receiving the throw (e.g., dropping the leg in front of the entire base), probably obstruction.

[VolUmp]

9 hours ago, MooseLoop said:

So if our F3 is set up in a position that allows R1 a clear path to the base, and the pitcher's or catcher's throw draws him into impeding the runner, then probably no obstruction?  But if F3 is set up in an obstructing position, and he impedes the runner while receiving the throw, then possibly/probably obstruction?  And if F3 unnecessarily moves into an obstructing position while receiving the throw (e.g., dropping the leg in front of the entire base), probably obstruction.

1) Definitely no OBS

2) Definitely OBS

3) Definitely OBS

These are the rule interps.  Whether the ump sees it this way and calls it is another matter.