Hidden ball trick and double run down situation

[ccourtney]

Long time reader first time posting - 

Its an 11U select majors tournament in Ft. Worth, TX and I think my partner threw me under the bus on two occasions. I didn't say anything negative towards him but wanted the advice and guidance of this community. For these two situations I had the plate.

First batter of the game hits a routine grounder to F4. I clear the catcher and come up the line to observe the F3 foot on the base. F4 bobbles the ball and throws late to 1B for an easy "safe" call for my partner. I pause and turn around to go back to the plate. I take 2 steps and hear the defensive dug out shouting "he's got the ball! he's got the ball!" and look with horror at the F3 waving the ball in his throwing hand and the R1 looking sheepish standing on the bag. My partner also appeared to have just turned around as he was walking to B from A and looked dumbfounded. The coach blew up at us both as we couldn't call an out that neither one of us observed. After the inning ended my partner came to me upset that I "didn't have his back" and that it was my responsibility to cover him while he got into position in B. He said I "should have walked backwards" in returning to the plate. I know in the ORB we are "to keep our eye unerringly on the ball" but I feel that if anything its both of our faults and that since he had the call on the play he should stayed with the ball until it was back to the pitcher. What is correct here and how can I do better next time?

Later in the game with 1 out we have R1 and R3 with me at the plate and my partner in C. F1 picks off R1 who takes off for 2nd and gets in a run down between 2nd and 1st. My partner moves towards the working area but doesn't extend past even with the rubber. R3 feints several times towards home and I move 3BLX to prepare for a play at home. F4 sees R3 breaking towards home and fakes a throw towards home forcing R3 back towards 3rd base and then F4 fires towards 3rd base and F5 appears to tag R3 out. My partner never turns with the throw and keeps his focus on R1. There is a weird silence as no call is made and I finally call time. Both coaches storm out and my partner points to me. I signal and voice "out" as that is what it appeared but I had a terrible angle it was hard to be confident. Was that my call to make? Should the BU turned with the throw? Should I have been further up the 3BL? With R3 I always assumed I had to stay near the plate. Please help as I want to get better and improve for next time. 

Thanks for your help!

[maven]

1. Though it's true that we shouldn't turn our backs on a potential play, the play at 1B is BU's all the way. He can wait till the ball's thrown in to move into position.

2. Not your call. BU has all plays on the bases in that situation.

FWIW, I've had #2 happen to me too. I got lucky, though, as the runner was out by a step. But still.

[Mad Mike]

Unless your partner was/is willing to learn from these examples, don't work with him/her again. Tell him he can ride a new bus and drive it over somebody else.

[taa71458]

There is absolutely no reason a BU should be moving to a position until the ball is in the pitcher's glove.

[maven]

2 minutes ago, taa71458 said:

There is absolutely no reason a BU should be moving to a position until the ball is in the pitcher's glove.

I see it periodically with umpires of limited mobility who don't wish to delay the game.

[MadMax]

5 minutes ago, taa71458 said:

There is absolutely no reason a BU should be moving to a position until the ball is in the pitcher's glove.

 

2 minutes ago, maven said:

I see it periodically with umpires of limited mobility who don't wish to delay the game.

1. There is absolutely no reason a BU cannot amble, putter, walk, jog, limp, hop, hell... crawl from the point of call near 1B to B without taking his/her eyes off the ball. Your A-Number-1 job as an umpire is to know the status and whereabouts of the ball, in that order. If the ball is Dead, then the PU can only make it Live again, so there's less emphasis on tracking the ball, at that point, as a BU. If the ball is still Live, then you better know its whereabouts.

The crazy part, @maven, is that these same umpires with mobility issues are the same that either take time to or, worse, call Time to brush bases, brush the pitcher's plate (rubber), and honor any request by a ballplayer, ever it be so slight and insignificant (the ball is already back with F1, we're not calling Time so you can get up off first base, Timmy).

What was the DT hoping you (or your BU partner) saw, @ccourtney? Did R1 come off the base absentmindedly and F3 tagged 'em? Can't call what you can't see, and while this is not an excuse, most of the time on BR's overrun of 1B, they're walking, trotting or jogging back to 1B directly. Which direction they pivot is irrelevant, but some still subscribe to the notion that a pivot counter-clockwise connotes a turn and move towards 2B, thus coach or yell at their F3's to tag BR/R1's, hoping to catch umpires unawares. In either case, BU/U1 really needs to own that base and be cognizant of activity around the base, especially when the ball is Live and nearby.

2. As @maven said, that play and call at 3B, in that situation, is BU's. However, you can help the both of you out, as an umpire team if you consider this (and make sure to pregame this in the future) – to move/slide more up the 1BL towards the 45' mark, keeping your chest towards the infield and your back to the 1BS dugout. You will be standing in foul territory. Everything should be happening in front of you. You had the right idea by going 3BLX, absolutely, but moving in this additional way will take some of the burden off a BU if he knows/reads you're going to do this. You'll have a better angle to view the rundown between 1B and 2B, allowing your BU to position himself more "polar opposite" you, more towards the 2B cutout. The natural temptation is for either one of you to be too close, too on-top-of the action. I'm not saying commit to going all the way to the 45' mark – more like, say, 10-15'. This gives you a much wider window to read F3/4/6 if they rare back to throw towards home. With a R3, in this situation, your top priority is the plate. As the fielder rares back and throws, you slide / crow-hop back into the dirt circle and you'll be in a great position again. The converse holds true for your BU – he's actually at a disadvantage, in this situation, if he's moved into the working area. He's gotta fight to keep his chest towards the ball, and anticipate if/when that fielder rares back to throw to 3B.

[ccourtney]

@MadMax the DT was arguing that R1 had stepped off 1st and stepped towards 2nd while the F3 still possessed the ball. As you said can't call what you don't see was the case but is not an excuse. 

Thanks for the advice on working down the 1BL a little in that situation, that certainly would have helped!

[maquinn78]

On 7/6/2016 at 0:16 PM, ccourtney said:

Later in the game with 1 out we have R1 and R3 with me at the plate and my partner in C.

Is this mechanics people use? In Illinois, the official clinic hand out says we are only in C when 3rd base is in "imminent danger" of being stolen. In all other situations, U2 will be in B. 

[maven]

6 minutes ago, maquinn78 said:

Is this mechanics people use? In Illinois, the official clinic hand out says we are only in C when 3rd base is in "imminent danger" of being stolen. In all other situations, U2 will be in B. 

1. No.
2. IL is back-asswards. With runner(s) on, the standard mechanic is to be in C unless a steal of 2B is possible. 3B is NEVER in imminent danger of being stolen, at least not above a certain level. All that said, follow the mechanics prescribed by your assigning organization (even IHSA).

[maquinn78]

To be clear, B is on the 1B side of the mound and C is on the 3B side, right?

[Man_In_Black]

7 hours ago, maquinn78 said:

To be clear, B is on the 1B side of the mound and C is on the 3B side, right?

Correct.

[noumpere]

16 hours ago, maquinn78 said:

Is this mechanics people use? In Illinois, the official clinic hand out says we are only in C when 3rd base is in "imminent danger" of being stolen. In all other situations, U2 will be in B. 

There are three mechanics "standards":

1) Be in C whenever there's R2 or R3 (or both); otherwise B.  That's how I first learned and what ccourtney was using.  Not many use it any more

2) Be in C whenever there's an  R2 and no R3; otherwise B.  That's what IHSA uses.

3) Be in B whenever there's an R1 and no R2; otherwise C.  That's what most use. 

[maquinn78]

Thanks guys. This blows my mind that the IHSA uses something different than most.

[maven]

1 hour ago, maquinn78 said:

Thanks guys. This blows my mind that the IHSA uses something different than most.

It shouldn't. Guys get comfortable with how they were trained, and when they arise to a position of power, their way becomes the "right" way.

And the IHSA isn't exactly from cloud-cuckoo land: as stated, it used to be more common.

[VolUmp]

On 7/11/2016 at 3:41 PM, maven said:

1. No.
2. IL is back-asswards. With runner(s) on, the standard mechanic is to be in C unless a steal of 2B is possible. 3B is NEVER in imminent danger of being stolen, at least not above a certain level. All that said, follow the mechanics prescribed by your assigning organization (even IHSA).

So, Maven, you are always in B with R1 and R3, correct?  Regardless of the number of outs.

In two-man, we are in B in this scenario, and PU is rotating to 3B on a clean hit to the OF as he glances at the touch of Home Plate by R3.